Jan 15, 2003 6:18 pm (#207 of 591) - From Syrtis:

The problem, IMO, is that some people think that if the relationship isn't overtly BAD (screaming fights, verbal assaults, emotional abuse, etc.) then it's salvageable. Or god forbid, working.

The truth of the matter is that there are lots of nice guys out there who will not act like a jackass but still will give you all the signals that they want OUT. They will still call you. They will still be there for you if you ask for help. But when you look at the relationship, they are doing little or no emotional work. You feel this in your gut. You know something's slipping or even GONE. His body's still there but it's not the same.

A lot of guys are OK with staying in this kind of situation because they *are* getting something out of it (sex, TLC). At some point they may walk away (when they meet someone else, take a job elsewhere). Some of them eventually feel the emptiness too and will break up with you (because they admit they are using you and feel that is wrong), a lot will just sort of drift away and let YOU break it off. Like it or not, that's a maneuver a lot of guys like: they act passively and let you be the "bad guy" that breaks things off.

When a guy asks for space, time, etc. he's thought about it A LOT. He knows that once he says that, coming back will require apologies and rebuilding trust. He's not going to say that unless he's practically gone. It's sort of a passive ultimatum. "I'm leaving, and am giving you advance notice."

The only thing you can do is read between the lines and accept that (like the song says), it's the start of a long good-bye. You can deny it all you want, but it's out of your hands. The question is how do you handle it. Do you fall to pieces and go into deep denial? Beg, plead, make yourself crazy, upset both you and him even more by making a sad situation even worse? Or do you accept the advance notice and start dealing with the fact that the relationship is ending, getting your life together, preparing for the inevitable?

Ending things gracefully is best: it helps you start healing sooner. With dignity intact. There's no shame in "walking away" from the dance floor when your partner has stopped dancing.

Q: He seemed interested at the end of the date, but he didn't call. Am I missing something here??

You are asking yourself the wrong question. The correct question to ask yourself in this situation is, "So what?"

I've had several DZ's that I thought went really well, where the guy seemed really into me and gave every indication he'd call, and never did. In fact, I've had that happen in situations where there's been more than one date. So what?

He got back together with an ex. He met someone else he likes better. He's annoyed that you didn't offer to pay. You said something that to you and most other people would be totally innocuous, but he found it offensive. Who knows? Who cares? You'll never figure it out, and why bother trying?

Pay attention to the guys who are asking you out - not the ones who aren't!!!

I know it can be hard when you're attracted to the guy - but in that situation you have to deliberately refocus your attention. You can do it, and every time you do it, it becomes easier! Trust me on this.

How much crying did I do over Hot Rock Critic? Hardly any! AND I was really attracted to him. AND I keep running into the guy (he lives a few blocks from me and keeps showing up in the same places). I cared for about a week and now I don't care anymore, even when I see him - although I'm happy that so far I've always looked from good to hot when I have. :o)

You have to train yourself to lose interest in guys who don't call. It's not easy but it's doable and it's well worth it.

Regarding a BF who said "When we break up, you can never say I was not affectionate like my ex said".

I know you probably don't want to throw him back, but I think if you don't, you'll look back on this day and ask yourself why you didn't trust your gut.

This is kind of how I feel when women see a big red flag, but figure that they will just wait to leave until they know for sure. So they wait for a bigger flag. And a bigger flag. Like a frog being boiled alive slowly. The frog could have saved itself if it only took action at any point along the way where it noticed an increase in the temperature. Preferrably the first time. But too many lady-frogs think that they've invested so much, they may as well see what happens. But the longer they stay, the more they have to cover their eyes to justify why they have stayed so long to begin with. And the man turns up the stove temperature another notch...

ScienceGal:"I don't like this :-P It makes me feel like a demanding, hard-to-get-along with gf, when the only thing I've done is invite him to a family outing"

So he thinks he is doing you a big favor by going to this. What I've learned about going to events with BF's it has to be their idea or they pout or act like such a pain in the ass you wished they just stayed home. YOU CANNOT INVITE THEM!

This has worked for me...What you need to do is just tell them you are going to such and such event in a couple of weeks -- just casually bring it up in conversation. Example:
Him: what did you do yesterday?
Her: oh, went with my sister to help her pick out new patio furniture blah, blah, blah.
Him: (no response or he just says "Oh...")
Her: Isn't it a nice day today? blah, blah blah Hope it's this nice for Sis's barbeque party next week -- it's going to be a BLAST!
Him: What party? who are you going with? Her- I DUNNO YET (very important words!)
Him: that sounds like fun! Can I go, too???
Her: mmm... (get Lili's bunny nose and think for a long minute)... and say sure if you really want to.
Him: KEWL - what time should I pick you up?

That's how it works -- you have to do it this way you cannot just come out and ask to escort you because you will hear -- "I'm not sure if I can go; I'll get back to you" or you will hear "I had to really work to clear my schedule to get to go; I hope it's worth it".

You don't treat him like a guy you don't want. I don't believe that, because I have strong boundaries with guys I don't want because I've always been around guys. You have to. They know they have zilch chance. A guy you're flirting with doesn't know where he stands at all, if you're doing it right.

Francella #446
What do we say when he says - So, why are you still single? or Why don't you have a boyfriend?

The best answer is a slowly rising, femmy smile and a wink. ;) The best answer is to do this simple, flirty feminine thing and say nothing. men looooove this... anything else takes all your mystery away. The answer should always preserve & perpetuate your mystery. It's your mystery men want, not your answers. Men want women for their mystery & their femininity. They don't actually want the factual answers to their questions. The more factual answers you give the more they will snore.

If he asks this when you are standing, talking, say at a party or club, do the slowly rising, femmy smile, and wink, and then take a flirty sip from your drink and walk away fem femmily, with a mysterious smile. He will follow after you. Keep doing this if he keeps repeating the question. Don't even consider answering. He will like you more, if you don't.

Mrs G [Joy-Rose] - 05:03am Jun 30, 2000 EST (#1472 of 1476)

Thanks Phooey and Aeiofa for pitching in to help SoftHearted. Hugs to you Yasmin. The main thing is to keep silent, when it comes to men. It really doesn't help us in any way to initiate any conversation, or to be anything other than brief when they talk to us. Men are nowhere near as verbal as us. Don't forget to copy down that ph # that was so generously posted here for you, I should imagine that Sloe will erase it soon, for privacy reasons, since some strange people have been known to stalk the girls on these boards.

The other posters are right when they say that it really doesn't matter whether he cheated or not, the intent to cheat is there in his actions. And it really doesn't matter whether you drove him to it or not by your jealousy, he must have been doing something to get you thinking along those lines.

I think it is likely that he got very bored once you gave him your unconditional love, you were getting too obsessive for his liking and not meeting his emotional needs. Nura has gone into great Jewish Orthodox detail on a man's emotional needs. Pay attention, because it's obvious that you weren't giving him what he needed most in the marriage. With the birth of your baby girl, you have become more unstable because your husband was not meeting your emotional needs, which became much greater with the stress of caring for a baby. It sounds like he had a good time playing with the baby and neglected your need to be nurtured. There is no way that a man can replace a mother's love. Anyone can do the work of a mother, but they cannot replace the mother.

You are still seeing not seeing your husband as he is in reality, you see him through rose-colored glasses, as you would like him to be. You are not judging his actions and his character accurately. The very best fathers are those who absolutely support their wives, love them, care for their needs, and THEN look after the children. You see, women need looking after more than their babies do. Babies really are very well looked after by their mothers, if their mothers needs are being properly met by their fathers. The only way to be a good father is to be a good husband. Going by that criterion, your husband is not a good father, no matter how much he may love his daughter and play with her beautifully at this point. If he had contempt for her mother, and preferred to pour his love into the baby, it doesn't say much for his character. He is weak, he has chosen the easy way out. You obviously have never thought deeply about the issue of fatherhood. I have had to. If a man does not love his wife in the way that he should, but instead chooses to pour his affection on their children, he will not have the character to properly love and discipline those children when they are older. This is a character issue.

How can I write this with such certainty? Because I've seen it happen time and again. Most closely with my exhusband, who chose to pour out his love on his eldest two children from his first marriage, and abused his wife. For some very sad reasons he ended up with custody of his two daughters, but as they grew up, they observed him verbally abuse me while I was pregnant and when my baby was little. After he insisted that I leave, he then verbally abused his eldest daughter with some awful results, she went on drugs and now has severe mental problems, and is in and out of psychiatric wards. The younger daughter seems to be more stable, but I don't think he's done a good job there either. He totally lost his credibility when he lied about me to them. When our baby was little, he once again poured out affection on the child and neglected my needs. Everyone thinks he's such a wonderful father, he had me fooled too, until I started measuring how he had gone at helping me instead of watching him play and entertain the baby. I found that he had been most critical of me in every way, and acted like he was way above me in all areas of parenthood. For example, there was a point when he was absolutely insisting that I wash out cloth nappies, and raving what a terrible mother I was for using disposables:o) If he were home all day, he'd never wreck the environment in this way, he would assure me self-righteously. Had he been supportive he would have done ALL the laundry himself which I was actually too weak and debilitated to do after my nightmare pregnancy! Enough of my past, you should be examining just how much he has supported YOU in the past months, not how good he has been with the baby, when you measure him in the fatherhood stakes. A good father would have made sure that you had everything you needed, and there is no way that he would have fed your jealousy by kissing and entertaining other women, he would have been too scared of losing you!

If a man doesn't have a good character, he is not going to be a good father, regardless of how well he can play with a baby. If he does it at the expense of his marriage, he is not a good father. Establishing a happy, stable marriage where a child can be nurtured is the most important thing that a father can do, and facilitating the mother who is the center of that home is the best thing he can do. I think it is most abusive that he has managed to convince you that he is the better parent at your emotional expense and at the expense of your marriage! This is why I say that if he has been abusive to you, he will be abusive to his daughter when she gets old enough to get on his nerves. If you have managed as a single parent of two older children, you will manage as a single mother of three also. Much better to be a single mother, than to have to put up with an abusive husband who undermines all of your self-confidence and makes you miserable with his crazy-making ways. Do not give up your power as mother, it is the only way you can protect your daughter as she grows older. You must think longterm at this point and assume the very worst about your husband, you have been deceiving yourself for too long about him. It won't hurt, because he does deserve that you do these things under the circumstances. He would only use your daughter against you if he had custody, because this is what a man who chooses the path of least resistance does. You must start rethinking your views as to him being the better parent, because by the sound of your emotional health at this point, he shows all the signs of being an abusive father eventually. If he has abused you, he will abuse his child given the opportunity. Much better that he get restricted access, and you be the custodial parent. Don't go for shared access while your baby is so little, it is too confusing.

Planet Claire - 10:37am Jul 5, 2000 EST
Ladies!! No! You are going towards the dark side. Look away! I have been where Piegirl and Northergirl are so many times, and it just makes me ACHE with empathy for what you are going through, but please, please, please do not start thinking of how you can "help" these men out.

I used to do the same exact thing, thinking to myself, "oh, they are really sensitive and sweet in their hidden core, which only I am perceptive enough to see, and the reason they are not purusing normally with dates and such is because they are intimidated by my beauty and charm, they are really so insecure, I need to make everything easy for them. Oh, only I, the deep and compassionate Planet Claire, have the insight to see what wonderful, wounded creatures these men are. Let those other shallow girls go on their 'dates' with their 'boyfriends'. What I have with moonpie is spontaneous and mysterious and will turn into something beautiful and true one day soon, very soon."

Yeah, right. I always ended up alone. Frankly, all the moonpies in my life never turned out to have a sensitive inner core. They always had a cheap, selfish core or a childish, player core. I only found this out after obsessing, analyzing, writing countless diary entries recording every word of their flirtatious dialogue, making desperate phone calls, letting them make out with me without dates, etc. Yes, these guys probably were insecure. That doesn't mean that they were sensitive. Insecure people can be the meanest people around.

I admit am not perfect and I have a long, long way to go in relationships, but one thing I do know: I know my moonpies and I know moonpie enabling behavior. Please don't go down this road. You could end up wasting a lot of time that could be much better spent: a.) dating guys who like you enough to ask you out, b.) working on your career, c.) taking up a hobby, d.) volunteering, etc.

You obviously are very sensitive women who deserve happiness, but I don't think you are going to get it by trying to figure out these guys. I'm sorry if it hurts to hear this, but I have been where you are so many times. I am now in my early 30s and it makes me ill to think of the chunks of my twenties that I spent obsessing over moonpies who never, ever really came through for me. I just don't want to see anyone else make the same mistakes. Keep on posting here if you want, say anything you want to us, yell at me, I don't care, do anything except call these guys and "help" them ask you out.

Nura - 12:32pm Jul 24, 2000 EST
It seems like intimacy, when he starts sharing all this with you. You start to think, "oooooh, we are getting closer, he is opening up so much. This is so good...". It is NOT intimacy. When a man starts to "open up" and tell you these kinds of things, he is not growing closer to you. He is distancing you. It is how men create anti-intimacy.

Ignore it. Go about your life. Be bored (yaaaawwn) (be thinking: I wonder if Mindy wants to go to spin class with me...maybe we can go shopping after. Oh! I know! We can go to the new spa, too!) ( these are the things you should be thinking about when your bfs start this talk!). It is un-close, anti-intimacy. It is.

Men who love you and want to be close to you don't bore you with the ins and outs of every unsure, wishy washy, scared of marriage feeling they have. They just shut up and love you. They work it out themseleves. It's the manly, thing to do.

Also, the more you act like the topic is interesting to you, the more he will talk about it, and the more unattracted he feel towards toward you.

nadeshiko - 04:35am Jul 24, 2000 EST
Some men of every race and culture (usually a loud and vocal minority) view the women of other races and cultures as sex toys. They will label these women "easy" and use them for sex and then go back wherever they came from to marry one of their "own kind" even if a child has resulted. White men have been doing this in Asia for ages. It is not terribly surprising that men of other races do this to white girls, especially Americans, but I think it probably has little to do with the way American women behave. You should hear the things that white and black men who have been stationed in Japan, especially Okinawa, say about Japanese women!

It's all bullshit and it's a subset of the "double standard" mentality that I am constantly decrying. Basically, these guys are pretty scuzzy and I would hate to be the girl they do marry, because they are going to cheat after marriage-- they are in the HABIT of using women, whether they are women labeled as "sluts" or women of other ethnicities, whom they then label as a "slut" regardless of her actual character.

But then, most of the girls who ARE labeled "slut" are not actually promiscuous. Most of the girls who get called "slut" in high school are either girls who are not popular or who have pissed someone off. Once you get the reputation you can't get rid of it, and you rarely get the reputation on account of anything slutty that you actually do. "Slut" is just a word people use to hurt girls they don't like because they know that once a girl is labeled "slut" men will regard her as "fair game" and other girls won't associate with her.

There's a GREAT (but heartbreaking) book out called "Slut" about this whole phenomenon. Anyhow, this whole slut/goodgirl dynamic just makes me SICK.

Women will never have a fair shake in this world until they learn to defend one another and not accept judgement on the grounds of their sexual choices... you can sleep with 100 guys, but if you carry yourself like a queen and expect no less, you will be treated like a queen-- but if you are called "slut" and you cringe because maybe once you let a guy go to third base, everyone will treat you like a whore and if you are in high school, you may very well be raped...

Anyhow, this is not a danger that only American women face. I remember once having to explain to this sweet young girl from Beijing, who was actually married and would never have thought of cheating, why she should avoid the circling pack of frat boys while we were attending an event in graduate school... I saw the way that they were looking at her and I just KNEW that if she wasn't careful she might end up with roofies in her drink...

...sigh...

I've digressed but basically, yes, women should always be a little more careful when dealing with men outside their ethnic group, if only because they can't read the body language as well. Of course that means if you are a mixed-race chick you are never completely safe...

Well, I just know I'll get flamed for being negative so I guess I'll stop.

Sugar and spice [Annaleia] - 12:55pm Jul 13, 2000 EST
I was really surprised the first time I read somewhere on the boards here that there are actually ladies who don't know how to flirt! This is still difficult for me to believe. I assumed that all baby girls were born knowing how to do that, each in her own special way.

Flirting is often done with exaggeration and humor, so we can get away with saying things we actually doooo mean, but we can always say "Aw, honey, you know I was only teasin' youuuuu!" Sometimes we're teasin' and sometimes we're not. ; )

The only time I run into trouble is when I flirt with somebody who isn't accustomed to Southern belle charm, and doesn't understand that I'm only being friendly (and that I flirt with just about EVERYBODY), and takes it too seriously. Aw! This earthly life's toooooo short to be so GRIM about everything! ; )

Flirting is just feminine warmth and charm, which is all about receptivity and responsiveness.

Feminine charm has nothing to do with coldness! It's all about warmth and radiance. There is a wonderful middle ground between the doormat behavior that is sooooo greatly feared here, and the (b word) behavior that some folks here would have you think is actually appealing to men. (Not in my culture, it isn't. Not to any man with whom I'd ever want to be involved!)

That middle ground is sweetness, but with spunk and sass. That's flirtation. For example, the strategically timed pout, combined with the stomping of a dainty foot. (This is only to be done in the presence of male admirers, one at a time, of course.) That's spunk and sass. That's flirtatious! (What do you think the *spice* part of my handle means?) hee hee

For me, flirtation is more about responding than about making anything happen. It's a way of making other people feel good, both about themselves and about you.

You can create warmth by smiling and noticing other people. Think positively and treat people with kindness. (KissMeKate, you already DO this. In fact, I can't think of anyone here who does this one little ol' bit better than you do, honey!) : )

Good manners make life more pleasant for everyone, and sweet talk will get you places that even wealth won't buy. Our mamas taught us to say "please" and "thank you." Add a smile and a twinkle in your eye when you say this to people. : )

Always sweetly make requests, rather than giving orders.

A lady is never too old or too sophisticated to be girlish and playful sometimes.

Speak softly, and always be ladylike. Ladies never use profanity or vulgarity.

Sugar-coat differences of opinion. (We want the outcome to be a win-win situation.) I always try to make sugar sandwiches when I have something unpleasant to say. That's a layer of sugar, followed (as tactfully and graciously as possible) by the unpleasant thing, topped with another layer of sugar. : )

Always look your best, no matter where you're going and what you're doing. Yes, even around the house, as I have emphasized here so often. ; )

Be warm and open, not in a talkative, chatterbox way, but but in a smiling, receptive way ~~ the *silent sparkle*.

Be receptive and responsive, giggle at other people's humor, listen to their funny stories and flatter them with your attention to what they have to say.

Find the humor in daily life ~~ it's there, no matter how serious the circumstances may seem. (Again, I can't think of anyone here who is better at this than KissMeKate!)

(I even get the giggles in church sometimes. My husband looks at me and smiles and says "shhhh." But he really thinks it's adorable that I sometimes just can't help giggling, even in church.)

Always know when to gracefully exit a party. Leave them wanting more of you, just like the way I used to end my dates (wanting more kisses). ; )

midwestbrunette - 10:58am Aug 11, 2000 EST

Nura, Oh, I know how you feel! This will help a lot: when you are out with your boyfriend, say things like "I'm having such a wonderful time!" "You are so much fun!" "You picked out a great movie!", etc. John Gray made a very good point: men want to feel like they can make you happy. If you let him know, in words, that you enjoy your dates with him, he won't be put off by the fact that you are so busy.

His feelings won't get hurt if you are happy in his presence. I believe that this is why E emphasize being L and avoiding "talks."

This is how he will see you: as a pleasant, adorable woman, who has a full life and is not sitting around waiting for him like a little puppy. For a decent, emotionally healthy man who wants to commit and who is willing to work to get a good woman, this is a powerful combination!

nadeshiko Aug 16, 2000 EST

slut = girl who had sex with someone other than me; girl who had sex with me and liked it too much; girl who makes me nervous by wearing clothes that make better men than me look at her; girl who has had enough sex to know I have a little dick or am bad at sex; girl who is sexier than my mother

prude = girl who wouldn't put out when I spent x number of dollars; girl who expects me to actually care for her before we have sex; girl who guards her heart and her mind; girl whose safe sex standards are higher than mine; girl who won't get drunk on a date with me; girl who expects me to use polite language in her presence

bitch = slut or prude who doesn't turn into quivering jelly when I call her that

Men like this love it, by the way, when WUMTHSy girls and floozy girls call each other names and fight with each other instead of honoring each woman's right to follow her own ethics and morals and meet her unique psychological needs. They know we are even meaner to each other than they are to us, and that if they can get us to call each other names, their job is more than half done.

men are not wired like we are [Nura] - 09:36pm Sep 13, 2000

. . - Why do you say they're unconsciously testing us?

Because they are. All men unconsciously test women (with varying degrees of intensity and frequency) in early dating. They are unconsciously testing the female's level of self esteem and feminity. They are testing to see how accommodating she is: will she put his needs before her own? How much? How often?

A woman communicates her centeredness in her own femininity by the things she says "no" to. She communicates what level of self esteem she has by the way she expresses her boundaries. By the way she maintains them.

Men don't want a woman who accommodates them. They want a female who is centered in her own femininity and her feminine confidence.

The unconfident female will do anything he wants, even when it is not what she wants. Out of terror that if she doesn't "he won't be interested in me". The unconfident female has no sense of worthiness: that she is *worthy* of being courted right.

She rushes to accommodate , and please him out of terror that if she doesn't, he will find another female. He will toss her away, like a cheeseburger wrapper.

"I've read on the Classics board and elsewhere that guys respect women who don't let men get away with treating them badly. My question is, do guys KNOW when they're treating you badly? Do the bad ones actually consider themselves ego-manic creeps? I guess I feel like telling this guy what a jerk he's been to me, but fear I'd make a fool of myself doing so, since I already embarrassed myself with one relationship talk. Any insight out there?"

Cool Jewel answered Nicky?s questions in the following post:

I am woman, hear me roar! [cooljewel] - 03:42pm Sep 5, 2000 EST (#2794 of 2826) nicky,

Oh yes, men are quite aware of the difference between the way they would treat their "dreamgirl" and the way they are treating you. They perhaps don't see themselves objectively treating you badly, but if you ask a guy how he knows another guy is dating someone really special, they will tell you exactly what he thinks of her by the way he treats her.

The whole idea is to never lower yourself to the level of a girl who would even consider someone who treats her badly. When you have that mindset, then men get those vibes from you and they treat you with respect. If you don't feel that you are worthy of respect, you won't get respect from men.

One possible exception is the very good looking guy who women constantly throw themselves at. This is a man who has no idea that he is missing out on having a dreamgirl precisely because he feels entitled to female worship. I would stay away from very very good looking guys for this reason. They are often spoiled and pampered and have no idea that there even are dreamgirls out there.

Don't contact this guy and tell him what you think. That is the l-a-s-t way in the world to ever get him to think of you as anything but a poor pathetic needy wretch. The best way to make him see you as someone not to trifle with, is to DEMAND respect through your ACTIONS. When you refuse to be manipulated by any of his behavior, when you refuse to be effected in any way, when you refuse to put your life and friends and activities on the back burner to accommodate him, when you refuse to spend another second even allowing him to occupy one thought in your head, and when you show this by being UNAVAILABLE and INACCESSIBLE for him, then he will perhaps come to see you as a different sort of creature, someone worthy of respecting.

Well, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now.

Nura - 01:36pm Sep 5, 2000
The reason you shouldn't say all that stuff to him is because it communicates, "I have low self esteem"- to men . It sounds illogical. But it is true. Dreamgilrs don't ever say these things. Why? Because dreamgirls have super high self esteem. When they don't like the way they are treated they lose interest . Very naturally and very automatically.

Having that talk is chasing a man with your interest. It says (to men) "You treated me badly and I am SO interested in you. Give me more of your attention by listening to this talk". It also says to men, "I want to engage with you. You interest me. I want more and more of you". This is what men hear when women talk about stuff like you are thinking of talking about. They don't hear the words or the topics or complaints. Their animal brain just registers, "I don't treat her that great and she is really interested in me. Weird".

Dreamgirls don't sit around thinking of what to say in these talks and how to present their complaints to the men they are dating. Because, it takes a lot of interest to do that. And a dreamgirl, when she doesn't like how she's treated Stops Being Interested in the guy. So, it would never even occur to her to pursue him with a conversation like this.

Men and women are not wired the same. They do not think the same. A woman will think, "Oh, I'm just communicating, and *I'm* standing up for myself and showing *my* self esteem by having this talk and demanding he treat me differently and complaining to him about his behavior". Whereas men think, "I know I'm not treating her that great. She is really really interested in me. She is a whacko.". They don't hear the message of pride that the woman - and only the woman - hears, and thinks she is conveying. It always backfires. Because Men Are Not Wired Like We Are.

To men a woman expresses her high self esteem by automatically losing interest in any men who don't treat her the very best. She expresses her self worth by her disappearance, and her absence of close, personal engagement.

The Rules work, because they teach women how to mimic the behaviors of women with high self worth, who actually lose interest in those men who don't court them very well. The Rules teach women how to mimic the *unfelt* loss of interest, that comes naturally to dreamgirls.

LRaine - 09:53am Aug 23, 2000
First, I "designed" what I wanted. I wrote a list of things I wanted in a partner and organized them into "Must Have", "Features", and "Fun". I read an article about this, and also saw the concept in If Love is a Game.... Anyway, the man I accept has to have all of my "Musts", most of my "Features", and maybe one of my "Funs".

Once I finished that, I looked at the list and tried figuring out where a man like that would be. Since creativity is important to me, I started attending poetry readings, plays, museums, and such. Since education's important, I started dressing nice for grad school. Since supporting the community is important, I volunteered for a local preservation group. See what I'm getting at? I didn't do the club scene, singles dances, and such. When TR said to get out and be busy, I carefully chose where I would spend my time so I could meet the men I wanted.

And finally, I decided I didn't really care if I fell in love. I just wanted to enjoy dating like I did in high school. So I went to these events feeling no pressure to flirt, to pay attention to the men, and such. I just went to have fun.

That's what got the men after me, I guess. Sure, I still attracted turkeys and moonpies, but I didn't notice them as much. Oh, I was kind, but not overly attentive to them. That left room for the neat gents to approach me, I guess!

Porn drives a wedge between a man and a woman
- because she can never compete with those images (Nor should she have to!)
- because the porn is meeting a need in him that's her prerogative to meet.
- because he can get his sexual needs met without having to be vulnerable or connect with a real person.

SnoBunny - Oct 28, 2006 4:15 pm (#712 of 713)
You know, I think it's pretty futile to call a man to get "closure." One of two things is gonna happen: