SmartBlonde - Apr 30, 2009 9:05 pm (#286 of 289)
I think the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other and it will take another generation to bring it back in the middle.
I think a lot of people - not just men, have no idea what it actually means to put a child first. It certainly doesn't mean that only the kid matters... nor that they take top priority in all areas.
My daughter is not only first in my life, but also the only thing that matters at all to me. But that doesn't mean I get off the phone or the net just because she says she's hungry. I don't drop what I'm doing to attend to her every need. That is how you raise a worthless human being with a sense of entitlement. Even if I was just posting to an anonymous RG who was having bf troubles, I wouldn't leave to make her dinner. I'd tell her to have a sandwich. (And this was true even when she was younger.) However, if she came in crying, I'd immediately stop everything and take care of her. But I'd do the same for any child or any friend.
It also doesn't mean that if my bf/husband has a promotion dinner on the same night as my daughter's performance, my daughter always "wins." If I'd been to several of her shows and the promotion was something special, she can live without me in the audience. But I'm someone who knows how to balance my life and prioritize things. I would never combine my life with someone who doesn't have these abilities.
I have friends who always side with their kid on everything, who let them interupt adult conversations, who will ignore me on the other end of the phone if one of their children wants to talk... and I see how those kids behave as they grow into adults. They are lazy and unhappy. One girl couldn't wait to get a job and have her own money - she lasted two weeks. She was shocked that her boss expected her to get to work *on time* rather than "around 3 or so," as she pleased. She was shocked that she had to actually WORK the whole time instead of having time to socialize and have fun. And she was shocked that her boss didn't change everything around at her mere suggestion - since that's how it always worked at home. So she and her mother BOTH agreed that her boss was an idiot and she should quit... and her mother doubled her allowance so she'd have more pocket money.
Ironically, her mother wasn't even putting her first. Because she recently got her first serious bf in years and now he's all that matters. Her daughter has become an inconvenience to her and she won't even give her spending money anymore. She was merely overindulging her daughter because it was the easiest way to parent and keep her daughter from whining and out of her way. Now she's at the bfs house 24/7 - so she can't be bothered anyway.
I would never abandon my daughter like that... but she also hasn't been taught that the sun revolves around her either. Putting a child first simply means raising them properly into decent human beings and being there when they really need you and sometimes it means not being there at all if that is what is in their best interest.
What a CAD!! Why did HE keep on dating her for two years if "he knew something was missing?" For the sex? Why do we always blame the woman in these relationships. He could have been telling her ANYTHING to keep her strung along. I feel bad for her, I really do! He should have let her go when he decided there was "something missing" or he knew he wouldn't marry her. He wasted her years when she could have found someone else. There are always two sides to every story. He might have truly been madly in love with her and could not let her go. Who knows! I still think he is a cad!
june girl9 - Apr 7, 2009 8:57 am (#1422 of 1436)
My thoughts exactly. The men who care so little about a woman they were seeing for two years to brag about it to their next girl are just sick. If they felt there was 'something missing' why string her along? I bet she had questions about 'where the rlnp was going' and he must have lied about his feelings to keep her around for that long.
Kellia - Apr 7, 2009 10:53 am (#1423 of 1436)
He was probably getting sex and affection, would he be stupid enough to put an end to that?
june girl9 - Apr 7, 2009 12:43 pm (#1425 of 1436)
Yeah he wasn't stupid. But still a jerk. Its different when both parties know its a FWB situation, and different when one is moving towards marriage, the other knows this and takes advantage until he finds someone better
I know its unrealistic to expect an average man to be righteous and not take advantage when the girl is being stupid and willing.... just venting
Forever Sunshine - Apr 7, 2009 1:03 pm (#1426 of 1436)
It is the woman's responsibility to look after herself, there are always some wolves out there. They way you behave determines wether you become their victim or they just pass by after a few dates.
That said, it is still very wrong for a man to prey on women who desperately want to be married. I would not marry a guy who did that to the last girl he was with. That is not the kind of character I want in my husband. A guy who predates on someone so close to him, outside a survival situation, is not one I want close to me.
Sweet and Tender-Hearted - Apr 7, 2009 1:53 pm (#1429 of 1436)
first, he could be lying about the date and call frequency (maybe he took her on dates once a week, and slept with her other nights). secondly, maybe they lived at a distance and he drove an hour to see her saturday (and other nights she had to sleep early for work), and when they spoke those three times a week, it was for an hour each time. if i heard from a guy every sunday, tuesday and thursday for an hour and saw him every saturday night (sherrie saw her guy once a week, and he wanted it this way, she was the one to push for another midweek date, and she only spoke to him once during the week- he called, said "did you have fun on our last date? can i see you again this saturday?") i would think it was going somewhere too.
this is a place where i don't agree with the rules. you meet a perpetual bachelor that uses women, wastes years of their lives. then he meets you, a rules girl, and it works, and he proposes...he is still a man that used other women. what prize did you get by doing the rules? his character is flawed.
the rules says even a playboy will change his ways for a rules girl- but for how long? and who wants a playboy? will you ever trust him? when you are in your 8th month of pregnancy, or old, or post surgery, will you worry that you aren't able to fix your hair or be as in shape as you once were, lest he find someone more appealing during your downtime?
clean*and*pretty - Apr 7, 2009 4:20 pm (#1430 of 1436)
you meet a perpetual bachelor that uses women, wastes years of their lives. then he meets you, a rules girl, and it works, and he proposes...he is still a man that used other women. what prize did you get by doing the rules? his character is flawed.
This is one reason why I say that most single (as in, never married) men in their late 30s and up automatically come with a red flag attached... what have they been doing all this time? ?
[/rhetorical question]
Amelie - Apr 7, 2009 4:30 pm (#1431 of 1436)
Good question. But there are probably many men out there who just dated women until they felt ready to settle down and get married. Or perhaps they just never met the right woman. Does that mean they have character flaws?
I think that if a guy has had other relationships, but they were loving close relationships, that is a better sign than if he just left a trail of broken hearts and women who felt they had been misled.
clean*and*pretty - Apr 7, 2009 4:44 pm (#1433 of 1436)
It seems to me that this:
But there are probably many men out there who just dated women until they felt ready to settle down and get married.
is just a nicer way of saying this:
you meet a perpetual bachelor that uses women, wastes years of their lives. then he meets you, a rules girl, and it works, and he proposes...he is still a man that used other women. what prize did you get by doing the rules? his character is flawed.
It's the same thing. He may have "just dated" until he was "ready" to get married, but however mildly it is phrased, the fact is that he has a track record (spanning decades) of satisfying his immediate needs for affection/sex/companionship, and will get around to meeting a woman's need for security and commitment when he is good and ready (or when he is simply too old to pull the hot babes anymore).
Is it a character issue? Many times, yes it is. A red flag is not a condemnation, but a warning.
Then another example he gave is that she got sick; so, he asked her if she needed him to bring her anything. She said no. He called her every day to talk and after a couple days he asked her if she wanted him to come over but he preempted this by saying he could not afford to get sick if she felt she was contagious. She told him no, don't come over then. Another week went by, she was still sick and now she was having problems with her computer. He fixes computers on the side so he tried to tell her how to fix it over the phone but it didn't happen. After another day or two she was feeling better so he told her he wanted to come take her out to dinner and he flipped out when she told him she couldn't go because she had a computer repair guy coming to her house to fix her computer.
To me, I think she was being rulesy but he just didn't get it and it only made him angry. I questioned him and I suggested that maybe he wasn't all that into her. He said no, that's not true. I said, "If it was Pam Anderson who was at home sick and she told you not to come over, would you have gone anyway?" and he said no (to my surprise). I just do not get it. All these men really and truly do not want the chase. WTH??
n s - Feb 6, 2009 5:34 am (#181 of 182) Reply
A week went by (at this point he was testing her) and she didn't call him. He thought it was ridiculous that she couldn't pick up the phone and call him just once.
love doesn't test people... he is putting his ego (and trying to be chased, instead of cherishing her and chasing her) before their relationship. if a man stopped calling me, this is a sign he wants the relationship to end, and I'm not going to keep it going. good for her!
he asked her if she wanted him to come over but he preempted this by saying he could not afford to get sick if she felt she was contagious.
then why offer? a person doesn't *feel* or *not feel* contagious (they don't know). that is so passive aggressive of him. it's like asking a woman if she wants flowers. you either get them or you don't, you don't ask her if she wants them so she either lamely says "uh, sure" or turns them down even if she would have liked some because no one wants flowers like that. "i want to come over, but if you make me sick, that is really rotten of you, I can't afford to miss work! so, do you want me to come over?"
he told her he wanted to come take her out to dinner and he flipped out when she told him she couldn't go because she had a computer repair guy coming to her house to fix her computer.
she needed her computer to be repaired and couldn't have some strange man over when she is sick in bed. he flipped out because she wasn't available the second he wanted her to be? he is a real jerk. she is better off without him. he needs to grow up before he dates.
To me, I think she was being rulesy but he just didn't get it and it only made him angry.
she probably isn't being rulesy on purpose, she is just taking care of her own basic needs and has dignity. he is definitely into her, and just lazy. he is your basic, run of the mill barbie man.
The way he paints it is that everything was marvy until a bunch of crazy women took over and now it's hell. This is only partially true.
This is but one small part of the preceeding posts but it's important. It illustrates the basic error that a multi-generational mistake was made upon. Many women will swear it never went down this way, that feminists were actually nobly pro-male and just wanted a better world for men and women.
No. I was there. To be fair, the movement touched on some issues that needed exploring, but it also fostered the most rabid, demeaning attitude toward men, one that sought to annihilate the male sex. The movement was hostile, and regrettably 'politically correct.' It spread, destroyed marriages, and when we had children the contempt spread to our male children. Female children were coached in the evils of manhood and urged to compete and confront with every breath taken. Boys were denigrated and chastised for simple manliness. All males were chauvinist pigs by virtue of their sex, not by their actions or their potential. Husbands and sons were emasculated, and were taught to feel guilt and shame for any normal male emotion or instinct.
We made a mess. We destroyed families and relationships. We created a dysfunctional society. At the same time, ironically, we opened doors for women that wouldn't have opened to them before. This was good. But we are so guilty of throwing out babies - and husbands and sons - with the bathwater.
I say 'we' meaning my generation. I was never in favor of the radical tenets of the women's movement myself. It's possible to raise sons to be manly and proud of it, and at the same time to be reasonably sensitive to the feelings and needs of others. It's preferable in fact, to encourage them to be not just what nature demands, but what civilization demands as well. We don't want our young men to be knuckle-draggers, but we don't want them cowed and humiliated by a generation of angry, bitter, and confused women either. We harmed our daughters as well, creating a painful approach-avoidance in their relationships with men that they don't understand and don't know how to fix.
Ok, yeah. It pushed a button or two. :)
This is why I hate the concept of IT talks. It inherently makes the female the seller. "Will you buy this, are you going to buy this, I hope you buy this, what are your intentions of buying this?" In negotiation, the first one to name a price is in the weaker position. Such is a woman when she brings up the price of her company.
Call it what you will, but an IT talk puts a woman in the role of masculine pursuit; making a pitch, hoping it is "bought," waiting for a *response*.
How many IT talks are necessary in WUM scenarios? None. The man either proposes or stops calling and coming around, but the woman NEVER has to stoop to making a pitch and attempting to sell him on the idea.
How humiliating to want it more than him and for both of you to know it, to have it spoken of out loud.
Issuing a warning also puts the woman in the role of seller.
If he isn't pitching, she can't be the buyer.
If she's pitching or telling him that she expects him to make a pitch (or warning him if he isn't), she's the seller.
I don't see warnings as necessary in a WU context, anyway.
I disagree with *ever* having an intentions talk or giving an ultimatum to a man. I believe a woman should decide silently, within the quiet of her own mind, how long she is willing to wait. When that date arrives, while a marriage proposal has *not*, I believe a woman should gracefully and kindly break the relationship off. Men aren't stupid. They can figure it out....or not. NEVER put yourself in a light to be perceived as a suppliant for the position of wife.
He has reassured me that I don't smell. But one of his schickts is that he's "not sexually experienced."
He's obviously experienced enough to know how to get out of doing what he doesn't want to do. Personally I think he has a lot of experience in that area. His behavior is not good and not normal, but your feelings for him are keeping you from seeing it for what it is. Reassuring a woman that she doesn't smell does not come up in a healthy, loving relationship.
This would be the equivalent of someone writing to George Bush to assure him that he won't try to assassinate him at the conference on Tuesday... then he can also throw in, "besides, I'm not a very experienced marksman."
Now do you think GB and the Secret Service will think - Gee what a nice guy to not assassinate the president? No, they will think there is something very wrong with someone who even thinks such things and he'd be in BIG trouble.
This guy needs to be in BIG TROUBLE with YOU! So big, in fact, that he needs to find another girl to say horrible things to because it won't be you anymore.
Here you have to say, "oh, gosh! I'd love to! aww, but I have plans already! wow! gee! I wish I didn't." 3 day rule! Do not say "yes" to short notice dates!
Girl: Sure! That would be great!
nooooo!:o
Guy: Okay, great. I tell you what... you call up John and Karen and see if they want to go, and I'll call up Harry and Sally and see if they can make it.
He does not want this to be a romantic date. When men have romantic interest in you they want to be on alone, one to one dates. If I were you, I'd go on the dinner party date. ;) As soon as I heard we were inviting all kinds of other people, I'd chime in, "wow! Great! I have new friend I'd like to invite! Great!" (We are happy, happy, fun & bright). Then, you show up dressed to the nines (pull out all the stops) and arrive with a handsome, charming man with great social skills. ;) Men want women that Other men are chasing. Thoroughly enjoy the whole dinner party date and everyone there. Be charming and fun and pretty. This is the formula.
Rent a man if you have to; or invite a quality guy-friend. (It's not someone you want to date. it's for strategy!). Call one of those Rent A Model places. ;)
This has been going on toooooo long, seelah! Time to shake it up! Time for top secret strategies! ;) This is a difficult mission. Time for secret weapons. If you are too timid for this, then the second best answer is,
LRaine: Leave a message for a moonpie
Girl: "aw, gee...wait! no! What was I thinking! I have something in the calendar for that night already! oh! shoot! gee! I really want to go! shoot!".
;)
A guy who has moonpied me for a long time called my answering machine and
said "We've missed seeing you lately at the club (singles dancing) and I wanted to know if you're down with a bug or have broken a leg. Hope not.
Please call me and let me know. Blah blah. Bye."
This is someone in a group of people that have parties together, etc. from this club. Anyway, he has shown interest for a long while,but has done next to nothing about it. I wouldn't be interested in him now anyway since I know what a BIG moonpie he is. However, what do I say? Do I call him back at all or not? Do I leave a L message on his answering machine, and if so, what to say? I want to communicate that I'm out and about dating and having a wonderful time (true or not).
I know he will "report back" to other members of this group so I want to say the best thing. I've noticed that groups like these are filled with moonpies. This one is no exception. I don't think I want dance much at this club anymore because of it.
Oh, hi! It's been such a long time! What have you been up to? Oh, that's nice. Me? Oh, I've been just so busy these days! Nothing unusual... a little X, a little Y, and a bunch of dating. Just for fun, of course, but what fun it can be! Yes, nice hearing from you too. If I find a sec, perhaps you'll see me at the club again. Take care!
LRaine: Businesslike Suggestions
Francella: Sensitive Male Online
It's a new Sensitive Male thing. If you don't LIKE this
courtship style, you have to write something in your ad indicating that you don't
go for it (that's what I had to do! I don't like it!). Write any of the
following:
Anything like that. Whatever. If you don't spell it out, it won't change. This is what I do; it works for me.
Are you old enough?
What that really means is "are you experienced enough at adulthood?"
What has your life consisted of in terms of experiences? Has it been narrow and sheltered or have you experienced some real ups and downs?
Have you had experience at problem-solving, particularly cooperative problem-solving?
Draw him toward ME, don't leap toward him. Keep a peaceful, happy aura about Me. Just some things that demure now means to me.
* * *
demure, demurer, demurest
1. Modest and reserved in manner or behavior.
2. Affectedly shy, modest, or reserved. See synonyms at SHY1.
[Middle English, probably from Anglo-Norman demure (influenced by Old French mur, meur, mature, serious, from Latin mяПНtяПНrus). See MATURE, past participle of demurer, to delay, wait. See DEMUR.]
- demureяПНly adverb
- demureяПНness noun
* * *
Even dumb guys like smart girls. So it's not a problem that you are smart and well-read. I had for so long tried to discourage Steve, a too-young and pleasant-but-boring guy to Give Up on me. He found me too interesting.
But girls who aren't demure with guys can be too tiring. Guys want a Bay to swim in, warm and shallow and inviting. Very few can handle a rushing river of thought, feeling, wit, and wisdom on a regular basis. (Or only the ones that want Mommas!) REAL Men want to BE the rushing river! ----O.
Your attitude becomes, "I like myself. I have some nice things in my life. And isn't it good being with you as well."
Pblaha: One thing I do at parties (when I remember) is to try to talk to people who look like they are alone and shy...or at least introduce myself (women only!) My first instinct is to only talk to people I know, but when I introduce myself, I know I can ease another person's discomfort. Within the last few years, I've developed an ability to talk to almost anyone...and people now "think" I'm an extrovert. I'm not...I just hide my shyness better now...or I've partially overcome it.
If you can make eye contact and smile, many times people will initiate the conversation with you. For those sometimes awkward silences, I either smile, sigh, make some general comment if I have something to say, or excuse myself to speak to someone else.
One thing that surprised me was when a couple of my now close friends told me that they were intimidated by me before we became friends. Eeek! By being shy, I was giving off an air of being unapproachable. I still struggle with this, but try to be aware, and smiling comes much more naturally now.
Jolynne: LadyC., I used to be very shy (people would comment on it a lot!). I decided to change (for my career & other reasons).
To do this:
1) I watched how people I thought were fun, nice, personable, etc. interacted, and took note of how they did it. If I liked the way they acted, I would model that (in my own way).
2) Before a party or even a small get together of people I don't know that well, it gives me a great, sunny, outgoing attitude if I say to myself (repeatedly): "What a great chance this is going to be to get to know some people! What a great opportunity this is going to be! How fun!" This sounds corny, but I find that it has a really transforming effect on my attitude/actions during the upcoming event. Interestingly, things usually do turn out to be really fun!
3) During parties/get-togethers I concentrate on getting to know the people there. Absolutely everyone has something interesting about them. This helps you focus on the people around you, instead of yourself, and automatically makes you feel more relaxed.
4) Don't be hard on yourself. With time (& effort) the things that seemed hard to you can (& will!) become the most fun!
Kute Katie: You too can have that vibe:-) You gotta pick up that book...
Secrets of Sexual Body Language by martin Lloyd Elliott. Its not a
book to be trampy, it really talks about subtle gestures, the way you use your
hands, for example.
I was working on this before I read that book...and my therapist suggested I rent
the video "The Thomas Crowne Affair" and
watch the scene where the Faye Dunaway character is playing chess with the Steve
McQueen character. The gestures she
uses, how she touches her face and neck, etc, gets him so rattled he can't concentrate
on the chess game:-)
Try these. they work like magic! I call everything a Rendevous. if i have to meet with my plumber to discuss my leaky pipes, it's a mysterious rendezvous... returning overdue books to the library? aaahhh, a rendevous of mystery...hee hee :o)
Anonymous: He said "I always thought you looked good". So not being able to let the moment go by with a comment I replied "Well thank you (name), I guess you could say the I have a head for business and a bod for sin".
possible "rejection": "oh, i'd really love to, but i already have something on for tonite". Nubian: You need to take control of the situation and let him start missing you. I dated a guy who was OBSESSED with sports. When the basketball college finals were on, I just did not see him. I didn't nag, even though I found it irritating. When the finals were over, this was our conversation:
W: [Nubian], I just want to thank you for being so patient with me and basketball. You never once complained.
Guess what? Next week I am really going to spend some quality time with you.
Nubian: Oh really, it was no big deal. You know how many friends I have to keep me busy.
W: Girl, you've been so good, I'm going to make sure I spend time with you next weekend. We can do anything you want to do.
Nubian: Sorry, I'm going to be out of town all weekend. Let me get back to you when I get back in town.
Honey, his face CRACKED. This guy was so condescending. He acting like spending time together was some kind of gift to me. I had to set him straight. He was majorly egotistical, so I got tired of "busting his bubble" and finally dumped him. He's still tries to call me (at work, because I changed my home number). The point is to get the ball back in your court.
If that boy reminds you that it's his birthday on Wednesday just say "Have I Good One!" with the biggest smile you can muster and walk away singing/humming under your breath. I did this once. I felt good because I wasn't being rude, but he felt bad because ..(his words) "It seemed so impersonal, like you don't even care!). :)
"I am bored with this relationship it just isn't giving me what I want and I can't pretend that it is anymore". The "bored" bit gets to them...and its true too, aren't you getting tired of feeling this way?
from "What Men Want"
"What kind of woman is the professional man looking for?
In general, the professional man likes a woman who is easy-going and fun loving. He prefers a woman who is open minded, not prejudiced. He is thankful when a woman is stable, intelligent, and has a good sense of humor. He
seeks a woman he can be proud of in the company of his boss. He is attracted to a woman who is sexy, health conscious, and secure within herself. And he loves a woman who is generous, caring, and sincerely interested in him."
Nubian: Then the guy started asking me if I thought my standards were too high. I replied, "if I thought they were, I would lower them."
Francella: when he pleaded with me to have "a big talk about us" recently, we went over the whole, "i need extreme physical beauty, that's why I could never be serious about you" confessions. he winced & cringed. and I told him that it never bothered me at all (lie!), because I understood that he has always had eyesight problems (he started laffing & laffing). I told him, cheerily, that I thought he wasn't getting enough carrots in his diet! (he laff laffed), I breezily, cheerfully, changed the topic, while he kept wanting to go over this and talk about all this at length (snore! yawn! zzzzz.) Rules women never let men explore these talks at length, (!) because they get so instantly bored by these topics! they, for some reason, always have to run off somewhere, cheerily and unconcerned, whenever men bring these topics up.
men become fascinated because they have never met a woman who didn't want to talk for hours & hours exploring and analyzing their lack of interest. the woman becomes awesome, in their eyes! they must have the woman who gets instantly bored when they talk about their lack of enthusiasm & their "unsure" feelings about her.
Francella: I've talked to Sherrie (on the telephone) about this and she says to say, (very sweetly) "I'm an old fashioned kind of girl. I don't have casual sex with anyone".
-- why don't you ever call me?
-- I guess I'm just old-fashioned when it comes to romance. I thought you were, too, because you act like such a gentleman.
What I would say to a man who asked such questions is something along the lines of, "oh, ummm..., I have to leave now, I just remembered I forgot to pick up my things at the dry cleaners" (or something similar), and then I'd leave and probably not speak to him again. Now, I could be wrong, but if I'm interpreting these persistent probing questions, and his tone, correctly, then he's being semi-sadistic and abusive.
You say to this, "no, just I am not ready yet", and he says: "I have to tell you, not all men are bastards" and "Are you afraid that I will lose interest after I have sex with you?"
These questions of his are unacceptable, downright rude, even sadistic! He's not respecting your answer or your right to adopt a stance on an issue. Plus, he's placing you in a ten-down position by implying that the reason you won't have sex with him is because someone else rejected you after having sex with you, or otherwise victimized you! He's trying to convince you that you have to have sex with him to prove to him and to yourself that you're not either a rejectee or a victim. I wonder if he got these from the "seduction" site?
fortitude - May 19, 98: Francella, they can't understand what you saying because of the hormone, oxytossin. (not sure of the spelling) This hormone is secreted in the brain of women in three circumstances:
I just love the Rules Boards ideas on how to avoid nosey questions
Parizade - Feb 9, 99: Never, never tell a guy that you are feeling insecure about his feelings for you. If a man is behaving in a way that makes you feel insecure, pull back -- way back -- but don't say a word. Get busy, date others, whatever it takes. Just never, never tell. And never let them see you cry over them either. If he makes you cry in front of him, NEXT him without further ado.
[BaileyBops] - 11:21am Feb 9, 2001 EST (#61 of 295) I've said this before and I'll say it again: When men buy make-up, perfume, lingere, stylish clothes, nylons, tampons, mousse, nail polish, beauty creams, and high heels on a regular basis, then I'll pay for dinner. And when they regularly pay for manicures, hair coloring, waxing, facials, and worry about their weight, I'll throw in a trip to Bermuda too. Women pay for their dates, just not dollar bills when the check comes.
[Rulesgrrl] - 12:11pm Feb 9, 2001 EST (#64 of 295) Good point Bailey! And yes, its true...men insist on being visual creatures, and wouldn't dream of being seen with the ugly, fat, pimply faced girl with the terrific personality. So yes, thats just another way women "pay".
[CLady] - 06:39pm Feb 10, 2001 EST (#74 of 296) I agree that most women pay for their dates before the actual date. The clothes, cosmetics, beauty treatments etc. is one type of expense. What about the non-financial input? After all not all the effort we put has a price tag attached. What about all the effort we take to learn relationship skills? I read somewhere that all women have a Masters in Psychology. A lot of time, energy and effort in our lives go into acquiring relationship skills. Most guys don't bother a tenth as much. (Don't mean to be man-bashing but that's what I've observed. Wish it were NOT the case!) So the guys are paying to benefit from certain expertise we have acquired as well. (Oh yes, and what about the cost of all those rel'ship books too?)
The first rule of making friends is that it is easier to keep the friends you've already got than to make new ones. So make sure to maintain those connections that you already have!
Always keep your eyes open for members of the same sex who seem to be in the same life position as you. These are potential friends. There are several life positions, but the one I am the most familiar with is single, no children, so I will focus on that. Finding potential friends who are similar in age to yourself is usually better, but people who are in the same life position often have similar interests even if they have very different ages. Don't become totally shallow, but people who dress alike often are alike so keep your eyes open for others who wear the same sorts of clothes as you.
Let's say that you already have been keeping an eye out for potential friends and haven't found any. Maybe there is just not a lot of friend potential in your current schedule. This means you need to start adding activities. It is better if you actually like the new activity, but not essential, as you just need to keep going long enough to assess the friend potential of the group and/or get a few numbers. Maybe four to eight "meetings" should be enough. Some suggestions are: local adult sporting groups (tennis, rugby, softball, soccer, field hockey, regular hockey, ultimate frisbee, hiking, running, etc, etc). One place that is often overlooked to make friends at is Speed Dating. Yes, speed dating. If you go alone to an event for women about your age then the other women there are all single and in your age group. And often times they are a little scared and happy to have someone to talk with before and during the event. I have seen fast friends be made many times at speed dating events. Don't forget about work and your own family! There are writing & reading groups at almost every local library. Community gardens, even your neighbors are good potentials!
So you have found a few potential friends, what now? Well I can tell you now that doing the rules on friends usually doesn't work all that well. I find that with most women friends, I have to make the first move, and sometimes the second, and the third. Women are very passive and can spend months trying to decide which night to go out while the seasons pass by. I like to start by saying something like "we really ought to get together sometime" and seeing if they seem to like that idea A LOT or just seem kind of so-so about it. If they seem semi-excited, you can casually invite the person to things, like margarita night or happy hour and see if she either takes you up on them or maybe invites you somewhere if she can't make it. I probably will invite someone three times before I tell myself they are not interested and I will focus my efforts elsewhere. It's no big deal--there have been times in my life when I was just too busy to focus on friendship and had to ignore people trying to get my attention as well. Make sure to keep the potential friend's interests and schedule in mind when making your invites--inviting a non-drinker to margarita night probably isn't the best idea.
Things to do with potential friends: invite them to a party, go out to happy hour/ladies night/margarita night/cheap wings night, have a pot luck, invite them over to watch a reality show, have a knitting or quilting party, take a yoga or other fitness class together, go jogging/swimming/tennis together, go garage saling, go shopping, go hiking, meet for lunch or dinner, etc. etc.
Don't give up just because you feel like you don't know this person and you don't want to waste your time with a stranger. Eventually, the stranger will either become your friend or not. You can't know immediately. I have found that it is impossible to predict who is going to end up being one of those great extremely close friends and who isn't. It just happens over time. Usually after one year of hanging out with the person occasionally I have a pretty good idea who is going to be a close friend and who isn't. And there is nothing wrong with having a lot of aquaintences, as long as you have at least a couple of good friends in the mix somewhere.
Be on your guard for people who never reciprocate. By never reciprocate, I mean people who always come over to your house for things but never invite you over to theirs. People who are happy to come over to your house and eat your food and drink your bevys time and time again without bringing anything or a reciprocal invite. There are lots of users out there who are more than willing to take advantage of someone who is friendly and social and invites them to a lot of things. If you really suspect that one of your potential friends is a user, than you need to stop inviting them over (or whatever it is they are not reciprocating at all) and wait to see if they take up the slack. I don't mean that things have to be 50/50 with friends, but if you are always giving and the potential friend is always taking, then that is not friendship.
Many people have a subconscious idea that women are an altogether less complex species, more like ... rhododendrons or beans, so that somewhere just around the corner is a simple answer on the lines of "they need plenty of phosphates," and that once this secret has been discovered life will be simpler. Women can be given what they want and they will then keep quiet, thus enabling the time and attention of real (i.e., male) people to be devoted to the important and difficult business of conducting their relations with other real people. Elaine Morgan "The Descent of Woman"
... we took the subway to Times Square, and we walked around. He saw these little american flags for sale in a store and wanted to go inside to see what they cost. they cost 8.99 and he went on a little tirade. I ignored it and floated out.
He had no set plans.
He asked me if i'd eaten dinner yet. I said noh. he took me to a pizza & falafel place (bright lights & plastic trays). I got a cup of soup and a glass of milk, and floated off when the cashier asked me to pay (after first looking at him all confused). my date got a paper cup of tea. My date started to tweak that I'd bought a paper cup of milk (his mother had given him 4 little pints of milk when he'd visited her before our date) (which he asked if he could put in my refrigerator before the date). In the pizzeria he explained that his mother had given him 4 pints of milk, and if I wanted milk I should have taken one of those with me on the date, so he wouldn't have to spend for the paper cup of milk in the pizzeria. He explained that the little pints of milk were in individual cartons.
he asked me if I wanted some tea. I said yes, i'd love some, so he got me another paper cup and he poured his tea in half. I asked him if he wanted the slice of garlic toast that came with my soup (because I don't eat white bread). he wrapped it carefully in a napkin and put it in his pocket .
he took me to the Marriot hotel to ride up and down in the glass elavators, which was fun. We went in about five times. we went in different ones.
then, he told me all about the swirling glass restaurant on the top of the hotel, shaped like a circle, which goes around and is is oh so beautiful, with a view of new york city out the windows. It sounded cool. He asked the hotel girl how to get to it. she said it was a cocktail lounge, not an observation deck. He explained to the girl that he wanted to take me up there to show me how cool the view was and how cool it was that the restaurant turned around on top of the building. He explained to the girl he was only going to take me to look out the windows - we weren't going to eat or drink anything (!). But then there was a long line to get in. he didn't want to wait in the line and found a way to sneak in, and I chickened out (yark).
He took me to the lobby to sit and talk and have intimate conversations all night. I was soo thirsty. I thought it was odd that he walked right by the beautiful part of the lobby, with the pretty, little tables with little candles and white tablecloths, where all the people were having fun and drinks over candles.
he took me to one deserted section, with no service or drinks. we got kicked out. he scouted around for another section with plain tables but no drinks or waiters or candles. I was soo thirsty I felt like I had cottonmouth. I kept wondering what kind of a cheapo he was, and waiting for him to offer me some water.
then I said, "I need a bottle of water". so he went and asked the hotel guy where he could find a water fountain. the hotel boy showed him some water fountains down a hall. my date showed me where to go to get myself water from the water fountain.
I bent down to sip the water from the fountain when I came to my senses and ended the date early. I tried to sweetly end the date early, and femmily and float out, but I was so hungry that I screeched at him for not buying me a glass of water and making me get up and go use a water fountain. thereupon, he screamed at me at the top of his lungs in the hotel (eek) "you're just after my money! I didn't spend enough money on you so you're leaving the date!". he went on and on yelling as I tried to find the escalator, but the escaltors were very confusing and I had to go down about ten of them. It was like one of those M.C. Escher paintings.
I was hungry and thristy and moody (it was after midnight and all I had was a soup and milk) so I started defending myself in the lobby while he yelled at me in front of all these well dressed fancy people about me being after his money. I said, "A glass of water! yes I want a glass of water! You can't buy a girl a glass of water on a date?!". Whereupon he started screaming that he'd already bought me milk and that's why I couldn't have a glass of water".
I told him to the date was over and to get far away from me (I was sooo hungry & had cottonmouth) (but looked cute). I ordered him to get away from me and told him he couldn't ride on the same escalator as me. I told him he couldn't ride on the same elavator as me either, or the same subway car as me, and I punched the buttons on 2 eleavators- one for him and one for me and made him get in a different one.
He insisted on seeing me safely home (it was like 1:00 a.m.). I told him he couldn't ride on the same subway car as me (lol). He sheepishly and obidiently got on a different subway car, since he was forbidden on mine. He saw me safely home but I made him walk half a block away from me everywhere we went (lol). We got to my house and he asked for the 4 little pints of milk from my refrigerator.
I wonder that, too
Kellia - Sep 11, 2006 2:33 pm (#2332 of 2340)
Mainly because if he loves you, he wouldn't *ask* you if you are dating others, he would rather *tell* you that he doesn't want you dating others.
Every time a guy has asked me whether I was dating others, his motivation behind the question was to push me to date others than him, since he was seeing other women.
However, men who wanted to be exclusive and date only me, have never asked that question, they simply stated they didn't want me dating others.
I would consider this a trick question. We are doomed if we say no, we're doomed if we say yes. Either way, the guy will use the answer against us to justify his multidating. IF you say yes, then he's off the hook and he can see others since you are too. If you say no, he'll encourage you to date others.
That's been my experience. Hope it helps. I never answer that question, until I know the guy's position on this. If he's multidating, then my answer is yes. If he's not, I dismiss his question, by responding: "you silly may'n, what do you think? Now let's stop this silly questionning". And I change the subject...
BrownEyedBlond(BEB) - Sep 11, 2006 3:46 pm (#2333 of 2340) Reply when a man asks if you are dating anyone else, it doesn't mean he is in love with you. it *could* mean he likes you, but not necessarily, and to not take it as proof positive he will pursue.
kellia gives a good explanation also.
it *is* a tricky question. one girl at a seminar didn't know how to answer, because she figured if she said no, he'd think you were a loser (ellen said he is not asking if you ever had a date, and if he thinks you are cute, he won't think you are a loser, so don't worry about that) so she said "yes, i'm dating several guys" but felt that answer was not good either.
ellen said a good way to answer it is *giggle* "nooo".
JUMP4MYLV - Sep 11, 2006 5:10 pm (#2335 of 2340)
Could you answer a question with another question? "Why do you ask?" "What do you mean?" "Oh, I don't know about all that..." (drift off...)
I hate to break this to you, but in the "good old days", there were Houses of Ill Repute on nearly every corner. The situation didn't get cleaned up until the 1890s. Who staffed all those houses? Women who couldn't find a husband and whose families couldn't take are of them. The fact is that back then a sizable portion of the female population was engaged in prostitution.
That being said, the amount of porn out there is mind boggling. If someone will pay for it, someone will make it. In a free society, all one can do is raise one's children as well as you can and hope for the best.
32 posted on 12/17/2005 6:42:33 PM PST by rbg81 (on www.freerepublic.com)