Unofficial Classics

clean*and*pretty - May 1, 2009 11:47 am (#331 of 353)
That's the problem with the approach I would like to take -- it's to serious and explainy. Or is it?

What works for one person may not work for the next, but at the same time I think that all personality types can successfully learn to ignore or evade questions that they don't really want to answer. You may not {giggle} them off, but there has to be a way to duck and cover.

On a Rules Seminar tape, Ellen was talking about how she didn't want to tell a guy a day of the week that she was free (she wanted him to ask for Saturday but she didn't want to *say* Saturday), so when he kept asking her when she was free, she just kept repeating in a "blonde" way.. "I don't know, I don't know." Spacey, femmy stonewalling.

Recently a guy asked me a question that I absolutely did not want to answer, and I pretended to think about it, and then I got distracted and then the waitress came over, etc, etc. If you don't leap to fill the space, life just happens over it.

Different things work for different people, and I could never do june's giggly banter either (wish I could!!). I can't do light & breezy or flirty, or ditzy like Ellen... but I *have* stumbled upon what I can do: I can space out, lol

Maybe if a man insists on an answer to the multidating thing (already a bad sign, imo), you could pause for a minute (while doing something else), say "all my eggs in one basket right away?" like you've never heard of that before, and then whatever else he comes back with, you just look vaguely puzzled and mumble "hmm, I don't know." Keep saying "I don't know" until he drops it.

Men like to keep things moving along and if you appear to stumble or be slow with something, eventually they'll just move on to something else, unless they are fixated creeps looking for power.

Double Standards

A woman needs a reason to forgo immediate pleasure, and the honor of being a Princess Virgin or Princess Virtual Virgin while her husband has screwed his share of sluts to get to her, is just not enough. If all I get out of it is to just be with an indiscriminately screwing, porno loving guy, then what is the point, there is no reward.

I don't expect to end up with a "man of virtue" in this day and age, but I don't consider it a just thing and think that the proposition that it is is grotesque.

That bit grated me too. Also it seems to allude to differences in age and looks, never outright, but it seems assumed. It says women should avoid hunks, but the descriptions seem to be of beautiful women.The bit about a girl absolutely needing to know what a good man is and seek him out at 21. Is the man expected to be ready at 21 or even 24?

Agree a lot with this bit. I'm not going to be the best woman I can be and forgo sex for years and years to marry an older, chunky guy who just got out of some whore's bed. I'd rather have 3 cats, 5 sex toys and a lot of books than do that.

I don't think my standards are unreasonable. Someone reasonably close to me in age, healthy and masculine looking. Having had a few lovers myself, I would not begrudge my husband to be the same. I do draw the line at any recent promiscuity or compulsive use of porno.

I do think women are to be the prettier sex, but living healthy, keeping fit and looking neat are for both the sexes. It makes no sense, biologically, for a woman to mate with a man of substandard genes and clog her womb with blanks and other undesirable seed.
(What is feminine prettiness is a face that is not just clear, calm and friendly, but also soft, plucked of unwanted hairs, enhanced by a little makeup, hair that is not just strong and healthy but also longer and nicely styled and clothing that is not just fitting for one's body and the occasion but also delicate, ruffled, soft or otherwise girlish.)

This kind of baloney is probably why feminists attempted to do away with the good girl/bad girl dichotomy altogether. They could see it was being abused and the good girls and bad girls were just getting played off of one another (while men paid no price whatever).

If all female virtue buys you is men who can have it both ways and have breakfast, lunch, AND dinner at the Buffet of No Integrity, then I can see female resistance to it.

This is a good example of how men's abuse of power and lack of consistency instigated feminist backlash (in this case normalizing slut behavior).

I'd rather get a sexually transmitted disease by having some wild sex myself than be pure and chaste and sweet like a good little chump and then end up getting herpes from wild sex somebody else had!!!!!!

It's not even that I can't handle male promiscuity or sexual double standards as much as that I cannot handle the philosophical *defense* of them (as being healthy, normal, inevitable, stop whining). Bah.

The whole benefit of chastity to women is that men sacrifice, learn patience, respect, and restraint, and work hard for sex. If he's been getting casual sex elsewhere his whole life he has learned none of those virtues or developed the corresponding character, and so what have you gained by saying "no" time after time after time?

I know that not sleeping with men who don't care about you is its own reward and that it protects you from a lot of disease, pregnancy, and PBTing, but geezus, it buys you jack squat from the Male Honor category if you're dealing with men like this.

Kind of like it alcohol gives me a headache and makes you vomit, that does not mean it is healthy and natural for me to get drunk. It does mean that it may take me longer to figure out that alcohol is unhealthy. Now, if I was explaining the damage to liver and writing about how clean should steer clear of the bottle and in the next breath say it is okay for me to drink.

Also, I'd rather date a guy who slept with a lot of women at 19 or 20 and then realizes he was young and foolish to follow his dick than a guy who thinks it is a man's right to spread his seed wherever he can. The latter has no reason not to cheat, save threat of you leaving. Better if a guy has some internal values that keep him from (at least some forms of) promiscuity.

I agree. It's all about the mentality for me. I would rather marry a man who has been with 30 women but who has no deeply entrenched Madonna/Whore complex entitlement, than a man who has been with 4 women and *does* have such an outlook.

If a man views women who have had cheap sex as lesser or "garbage," but who nonetheless has cheap sex anyway, he is by his own value system a "garbage maker" of women. He corrupts them into GarbageVille and it's his right and why should he care so long as his Mother, Sister, Wife, and Daughter are not initiated into the Garbage Club. To hell with everybody else, though.

Any system that depends on victims is crap. Men like that think it's natural, normal, and fine for some women to just come up with the short end of the stick in life. We can't all be winners, right? Sluts serve a purpose, lowly as it is, and it's certainly better than keeping your dick in your pants so that all women can be non-garbage girls of worth.

Exactly. That is another reason why it is pretty useless to ask for numbers. Some guys, especially not so attractive guys, have only slept with a few girls but still feel some women are only in the world to be used sexually. Guys like that may also be looking for revenge on women. That DJ was an example of one. No woman should ever associate with a guy like that, for sex or marriage. The energy exchange in such a relation is much darker than in that of two foolish, horny people. There is the actual intent to corrupt/destroy the girl.

A guy calling a girl is slept with a cum-dumpster is actually using verbal aggression on a girl he shared intimate moments with. I don't believe a man can use his penis as a weapon to destroy in one weekend and as a tool of loving pleasure the next. Guys like that see wild, passionate sex as a win/lose situation and disdain the loser. They feel they cannot honor their wife and have satisfying sex with her. So in the marital bed the wife lies back and thinks of England while he has repressed sex with her. Then, he feels the need to have satisfying sex, which he can only have with whores.

Great point. A man may have only a few notches but you can't assume that is a voluntary thing, or that it's a result of principled behavior.

I knew a virgin male (19 yo) who actually said that he believed that 99% of women should be old-fashioned and nice, and the other 1% should be like [some porn star's name I've forgotten].
Well, okay. So how about this, 99% of people should be happy, free, and respected, and the other 1% should be slaves.
How evil is that mentality?!?!!!!???

(((I'm so glad I don't have conversations like these with men anymore. I don't really have any male friends anymore either and that is fine, I cannot take it)))

There is the actual intent to corrupt/destroy the girl.
Most of the time, there is not even any intent, just apathy. Men know they are part of the process of cheapening and corrupting (if it is part their belief system that women who have casual sex cheapen themselves), and they don't care. Most men are not hell-bent on destruction so much as they don't give a shit if someone else loses as long as they win.

A guy calling a girl is slept with a cum-dumpster is actually using verbal aggression on a girl he shared intimate moments with.

Yeah, but again, that's probably a pretty small percentage. The vast majority of men are nothing at all like Aaron Eckhart's character in The Company of Men. They don't *set out* to inflict harm. They just take what's on offer and if it puts a woman in the one-down position, hey, that's not his problem. Apathy, selfishness, and a lack of integrity are the issues most of the time. Genuine malice is really quite rare.

So in the marital bed the wife lies back and thinks of England while he has repressed sex with her. Then, he feels the need to have satisfying sex, which he can only have with whores.

This is at the far, far end of the Madonna/Whore spectrum. Most men who have double standards and some degree of Madonna/Whore thinking don't come anywhere near that. I'm afraid of bad things that I'm likely to encounter, not the rare outlier oddball.

lol
No one is blaming men for avoiding women who are "just for sex" girls. What men are being criticized for here is for sleeping with those women, and paying no price for it. He is not viewed as a cad or as lacking in integrity in any way if he sleeps with a lot of "just for sex" girls, then marries a good girl and raises good daughters. No one will call him a hypocrite for this.
Well, except me.

Like that 19 yo guy that I mentioned before, the one who wanted 99% of women to be good girls, and 1% of women to be like some porn actress, he didn't think he was a hypocrite, and was surprised when I called him one. (like I said, I'm glad I don't have these kinds of conversations with men anymore!!)

If someone thinks that something is wrong or harmful and that others shouldn't do it, but does it himself, he is a hypocrite. If a man plows through women but wants HIS mommy and HIS wife and HIS daughter to be safe (from pigs like him), then he should be frowned at for the fact that his behaviors do not align to his ideals.

What would you think of me if I lived during slave times and helped some slaves to escape, but kept slaves of my own? It's kinda like that when men only want to protect certain women from the dangers of promiscuity (the ones they care about personally), but don't care a whit about whatever damage they do to other women in service of their own orgasms.

Warren Beatty being protective of his daughter but not particularly regretting his past = H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E

Men's and Women's Age

Men may not have the same age-related reproductive limitations as women do, but they tend to DIE a lot sooner, and that is the ultimate "shelf life" lol

Men may not have the same age-related reproductive limitations as women do, but they tend to DIE a lot sooner, and that is the ultimate "shelf life" lol

Where has this sentence been all my life? After I read this, a light bulb when off on my head. I am totally going to use this response towards every single person who tells me I should hurry up to have children, as men can have kids at any age in their lives. This is the PERFECT come back. Men should be concerned about having children, even more than women, since they die a lot sooner, so they better hurry up if they want to spend any amount of time with their children...

Men should be concerned about having children, even more than women, since they die a lot sooner, so they better hurry up if they want to spend any amount of time with their children...

Men in generally have always died sooner than women. The fact is knowing they have children to continue there names or genes is enough for many of them.

I would not want to have kids with a man who is 50 when his child goes to kindergarten and knows he is likely to die before any grandchildren come. A man like that would strike me of caring about himself way, way above his wife and children.

That reminds me of Tony Randall, Forever. He was what? 77/78 when his children were born. He did not have children with his first wife and they were married for 50 years.

The fact is knowing they have children to continue there names or genes is enough for many of them.

That is sad. Since they aren't thinking of their children and the best interests of their children. As long as their kids carry *their* name or genes, is enough. These men aren't concerned with the fact that their child will not have a father around when growing up, or with being able to do things or spend time with their children. What happened to putting the child's needs first? I guess some men don't care, as long as their names or genes are passed on. Sad, really sad, as my main concern is to be around for my children and to be able to take care of them.

Where has this sentence been all my life? ... This is the PERFECT come back. ...
;)
You have no idea how happy I am to help, lol. Spread that comeback far, spread that comeback wide!!! Wheeee~~!

Maybe they don't consciously think that way, but it's something in their biology? Maybe it's the same way that most women feel a hankering to have children all their lives, and women who really don't want or yearn for children at some point are in the minority. I would like to believe that men aren't THAT selfish, LOL.

How to recover after a relationship talk

I had a phone consult with Ellen last night... she is not married yet. I presumed since she called him her fiance.

I have to tell you the advice she gave me was the best advice I have EVER received and IT WORKED!

problem in a nutshell: ME: I was bootcamp TR with Yachtsman from the very beginning. 5 months in, I melt. He started pulling away. Old gf started calling him (or at least I found out around this time); saw pics of old gf on his pc. I initiated a relationship talk; he did not respond well at all; in fact "breaking up" was mentioned. He went away for 2 days, and before he left, we had a long drama filled phone call (ICKKKKKKKK!!!)

Ellen: how did you meet? "on Plenty of Fish" (she said she had not heard of that one) who initiated "he did" (she said good)
told her my age, told her how many times I had been married and that I ended each marriage, she said I must be very good looking to have been married so many times,she asked what movie star did I look like, I told her that I always think that I look like one of the Playboy bunnies On the Girl Next Door (ackk..but it's true and I even have the long bleached blonde hair that I pouf up and curl a bit, size 4 fake tanned body and can play the blonde ditz really well) She loved that. Said we are both the same age (50) and she has long blonde hair.... soooo....

she said this is what I have to do: the next time he called me I have got to act like a "playboy bunnie on coke" when I talk to him. Happy happy and more happy. The ex-gf does not exist. I will never speak her name again. I will never talk about the relationship again. I will tell him my passion and use words like "fabulous" "fantastic" "amazing" constantly I will ask him a question like I am really serious (like he thinks it is a relationship question) "I really wanted to ask you something?" then say "When you marinate steak, do you leave it in the marinade for 24 hours or just a few hours?" (I AM SERIOUS GIRLS!)

I am to at least ask him two "serious" questions that really aren't serious. This is to show him that I can ask a question without asking about our relationship.
When he tells me about his trip I am to say "oh that sounds fabulous" no matter what.
If he asks me how I am feeling or any type of question relating to our horrible conversations I am to count to 5 and answer very nonchalantly and immediately change the subject

she role-played that one with me. She said I must act like this with him for now and always if I want to keep him. she said most men would have walked after I told her my story.

So, he called... I was soooo PLAYBOY BUNNIE ON COKE CRAZED HAPPY. He said, "How's it going?" (in a not so great way).
I go, "HI!!! Yachtsman!! oh its going soooo fabulous, I have had a wonderful day, oh my god, my son is finally in the dorms and I feel free and soooo happy and the maids came today and cleaned the house and even left a message for me saying "enjoy the semester without your son" Isn't that cute? (no I did not let him answer...whewww...took a breath and then..) I had a great run today and then I jumped into the pool afterwards and it felt sooo fantastic, the water was so cool and I just loved it, then I went to (ice cream place) and had this amazing sundae, oh you would have loved it, it was peanut butter cups and key lime pie and it was sooooo delicious and yummy...."
him: have you been drinking?
me: (laughing) no, I never drink alone! why?
him: you just sound so giddy
me: oh, I am just soooo happy!! My son is out of the house and I am so stress free and relaxed and just happy...
him: well, uh, so this is the Happy Tabitha?
me: yes, we met right before my son came home from college, remember how happy I was then..
him: yes, but we didn't see each other much
me: well, I am running a bath and about ready to hop in..
him: am I seeing you Friday night?
me: sure (Note: he is fixing my tv friday night, Ellen said this was great...she said and I quote "Rules girls USE men" and to be sure and say how great of a job he did and really lay it on thick after he finishes)
him: I am going to pick up some seafood for dinner.
me: oh that sounds fabulous (see a pattern here???)
him: are you sure you haven't been drinking??
me: giggle giggle well,I have to go now, goodnight YM
him: I am looking forward to Friday night, can I see you Sat night too? (he has NOT said this in ages!!!!!)
me: we'll see how things go! bye now
~ ~ ~ The end ~ ~ ~

Okay -- it all sounds like games and playing and silliness, but I can tell you that I was determined to turn things around, and I had only this one chance to do it. I am so glad I called Ellen. Nothing my friends told me came even close to her advice.

oh... more pointers that she told me:
Always always tell yourself that you are better than everyone else
Always tell yourself that you are prettier than everyone else.

The ex-gf can call him but remember She is BREAKING THE RULES by doing this. Rules girls are not mean (because I told her I thought about not picking up the phone when he called). She also told me my behavior was very un-CUAO. The ex-gf doesn't exist and never mention her name again. That she (Ellen) doesn't have a jealous bone in her body, and when her husband's ex called, she actually handed him the phone! That if someone calls and I am there (in the car, etc), just sit sweetly, look at my nails, out the window, and no questions. He can have all the friends he wants and for me to not let any of that bother me. She did not like the fact that he only gave me flowers for my b-day (she thought he should at least have given me a bracelet)

All of this helped me tremendously. You can say that we shouldn't think of ourselves as better and prettier but when your self esteem is in the gutter this is the only thing that helps.

WUMTHS board discussion about views on AskMen.com forum

I dated a girl once for 3 years who wanted to wait till marriage. Despite that I still see her as one of the "good ones" when it comes to women...I wouldn't get into a RL like that again with another woman...meaning if she wanted to abstain I'd walk.

Yeah, this particular post is from D-Jam, one of the nicer fellows on AM. He's said that he wouldn't date a WUMTHS girl again because when he dated a WUMTHS girl for three years and they broke up, he felt like "three years of his life was wasted." Of course it probably wouldn't dawn on him that when women date and have sex for three years and then end up not getting married to that man, they might feel that that was three years of their life wasted.

This is also a guy who says he wants to date a woman for at least 3 years before getting engaged/married, and then wait another 5 years after that to begin having children. And he's 35 and single (no girlfriend).

He's said that he wouldn't date a WUMTHS girl again because when he dated a WUMTHS girl for three years and they broke up, he felt like "three years of his life was wasted."

If he had no intentions of marrying her, he could have broken up earlier and saved both 2 years of additional wasted time. After all, he knew she was WUMTHS.

(Again, it's the ME in women that takes over and becomes dominant: the woman can initiate sex, free love is in and commitment is out. Those men are having a rant because they can't express their male side properly).

lol
Even the most cursory glance at the site reveals the strangest contradiction: they simultaneously complain that women these days are unfeminine and "too masculine," while bitching that they have "Princess entitlement complexes" and don't ask guys out or pick up the tab often enough.

Once in a thread about how horrible independent women are, one of the decent female posters commented wryly, "You guys want dependent women who ask you out and pay for dinner."

I think my very favorite contradiction is the AskMen view that having sex within the first few dates is important to ensure that she doesn't "have issues" and "is really into the guy and not just using him," while on the other hand having a tremendous disdain for women who are "sluts" with "too high of a number," or who have an STD.
It's a trip down schizophrenia lane.

For men to bitch and whine on forums, they would have to be quite FE to begin with.

Most are, but some posters are quite ME. Marcus, BadAttitude, and Desperado44 are all ME (the first two very much so).

What I'm beginning to sense is that divorce, heartbreak, or too much dysfunction tends to degrade masculine energy. Pat Allen says that ME men fall in love once in their lifetimes.... I don't know if this is literally true or not, but I do believe that there is a "cap" on ME, male pursuit, and emotional availability.

I think that feminine energy is a renewable resource while masculine energy is less so. My point was that, to be blunt, men tend to "break" under the pressure and stress of too many romantic disappointments. The will is gone and so too is the drive, or the ME. The urge to conquer is a youthful and hopeful one, and when the years start piling on and a man has one divorce, maybe two under his belt.... his masculine energy has already been spent.

Perhaps it has something to do with Pat Allen's theory that women have yin bodies but yang souls, while men have yang bodies and yin souls.... men are more emotionally vulnerable in many ways and once broken tend to stay that way.

I'm not sure that's the case. I think he just dawdled and lost out. He's the "I need every single last one of my ducks in a perfect row before marriage" types, and he wasn't as financially stable at the time and would not propose marriage under those circumstances.

One of the biggest obstacles for people in their 20s to get married is the economy and massive student debt. The way things are currently set up is a threat to the natural progression of life (home and hearth during the years most conducive to romance and fertility). The more ME a man is, the less likely he is to propose without being able to singlehandedly support a family, and that is no small feat these days.

What I'm beginning to sense is that divorce, heartbreak, or too much dysfunction tends to degrade masculine energy.

ME are less likely to successfully introspect and heal than FE, but it's not impossible. That said, when a man is very ME, and happens to be twice divorced, introspection will cause him to realize he has very little to offer to a woman in her childbearing years, which is highly painful.

If he is sufficiently brave he may be able to face realityand look for a woman whom he can offer something masculine and have a meaningful relationship with, even if not marriage. For example, a woman with grown children who is not looking to remarry, for whom he can do repairs and drive her here and there and she can appreciate that. Not many man can handle this though, and a lot of men do give in to bitterness when they meet many disappointments.

That said, when a man is very ME, and happens to be twice divorced, introspection will cause him to realize he has very little to offer to a woman in her childbearing years, which is highly painful.

It's funny that you say that, because one AM poster (Desperado44) seems to be struggling with this. He's 40 years old, divorced with 50/50 custody of a teenage son, and has self-confessed problems with commitment (doesn't want to get married again after a painful divorce). Yet he always dates women in their 20s and is perpetually dismayed when they are interested in marriage and starting a family.

There was a *huge* 60-something page thread of his about this, basically.... he went out on a date with a 29 year old and was horrified when she said she wanted a family. Yes, of course it is not rulesy for a woman to bring this up, but I'm amazed that he can't figure out that the age group that he's most interested in is most interested in marriage/family. He dates with his eyes... his brain is taking a slumber.
He wants a 20-something with a 50-something's "I'm over the family thing" mentality.

Yes, of course it is not rulesy for a woman to bring this up, but I'm amazed that he can't figure out that the age group that he's most interested in is most interested in marriage/family. He dates with his eyes... his brain is taking a slumber.
He wants a 20-something with a 50-something's "I'm over the family thing" mentality.

Of course, the age group that is most suited for motherhood is what nature made most attractive physically. My mom's boyfriend is divorced with small kids, but my mom is 60, not looking for a family and is happy with just company, someone doing repairs etc. A lot of women her age, or even 45+ who had children young, are in the same boat. For a guy who is 40, 47 is not that old.

I do think that as long as women of around 30 are (duty) dating these guys, most of them will not approach older women. They just think that 30yo's still have the hots for them and they can date them indefinitely, it's just that the current one has issues. People who don't want to look at themselves in all honesty are very motivated to delude themselves.

I have a theory: I think men who are players are looking for male love rather than female love, but are afraid to engage in homosexuality. Most PUA's have a close male friend or a few friends they spend most of their time with. Bros before hoes culture stimulates emotional affection to be lavished on men rather than women. Two PUA's are often inseparable. Also, many players refrain from engaging in masculine pursuits, spending instead an unhealthy amount of time on their appearance and bitching with their buddies.

Compare this to the lifestyle of a stereotypical homosexual; he lives with his boyfriend, goes to the gym and salon after work, often goes out with the purpose of getting laid, likes to pursue casual sex. The player would like nothing better than to live with his wingman, as a roommate of course, and goes to the gym and salon after work, often goes out with the purpose of getting laid, likes to pursue casual sex.

Sure, the PUA may be having the sex with women, but what kind of sex? The sex often resembles a porn movie, purely masculine sex, the bottom could have been male just as easily as female. Often, the player discusses his sexcapades at great length with his wingman, hoping to impress him. His wingman returns loyalty by being a misogynist and hurting woman. PUA's often brag about how little they do for women. Not doing anything for Valentines, letting a girl pay his way etc. The message is: Although I am fucking her, I am cherishing you, my brother. Look how little I love her, that leaves so much love for you. Note also that other PUA's often feel betrayed, cheated on when one player quits they game to marry.

A healthy heterosexual man forms both emotional and sexual bonds with women. A healthy homosexual man forms both emotional and sexual bonds with men. It is fine to be gay, gay men do not hurt anyone. When someone tries to be something he is not, when he lies to himself and the world, that's not fine. The married man who goed on the down low in another side of the same coin as the player. Often the latter turns into the former when married.

Although ordinary men may use pick up techniques and indulge in casual sex here and there, a healthy male will get bored with this soon and realizes he has a dreamgirl to find and pursue. When he meets a girl who does not respond to the techniques, he feels she is special enough to bond with and strong enough to be faithful to him after marriage. Thus, he feels free to cherish her, if she is his type. A player does not want to bond emotionally with women, as he is already thus bonded to men, so when he comes across a woman who requires an emotional investment, he passes her up to laid laid by easy women. The reason he is capable of passing her up is because he is not attracted to women in that way.

Philos is caused by emotions, so two people in a philos relationship are most threatened by emotional adultery. Relationships that lack emotion are encourages among players. Ask a player why he is with his long term girlfriend and he will mention sexual and rational benefits, few sensual and emotional ones. He will say his girlfriend never says no to him sexually, cooks and cleans for him, has a high income or rich parents. This makes his beloved wingman feel safe and cherished. It is actually very similar to the behavior of a whore who sleeps with johns and takes material benefits from them, but saves her emotions for a boyfriend or often a girlfriend.

FS: Very true; and hate to tell you, but it's not a new theory at all. I read this stuff from a russian author several years ago and even tried to discuss it on the boards. Then I had to change my screen name, lol. Don Juan and Casanova were gays. That's why they needed to prove over and over to themselves and others, that they are into women. It is possible to satisfy a normal man with one normal woman. He may have to go through 3 or maybe even 5 women before he settles, but it's intermediate stage for him, he doesn't like it, he wants one normal woman. It is possible to satisfy him. Unlike a guy whom no normal woman can satisfy. He needs either abnormal woman, or women or non-women altogether (children, men, animals, objects). Clearly, you can't satisfy such needs. All these unusual needs are just garden varieties of (suppressed latent) homosexuality.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to start trouble here, but this is not always true. I know this from personal experience.
It's USUALLY true, but not always.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to start trouble here, but this is not always true. I know this from personal experience.

it is true. i always wanted to tell you, lavendar, that that guy who told you he wasn't attracted to you was lying and wanted to hurt you, but i wasn't sure if you'd believe me. a man will never bother to be with a woman he can't get it up for, even if he doesn't want her to know it.
men have dated models and said nasty things to make them feel ugly. come men are just yucky. but they *are* attracted to the girl.
that ex of yours gave you a whammo of a neg hit to bring you down to where he imagined his level is.

a man may date a less attractive woman that he usually does (I know a guy who said "forget it, these hot girls all cheat on me, I'm going to find a nice, average girl to be with" and he did find a girl that was more average, but still attractive...he would never have picked someone he didn't want to have sex with. the girl he picked was less high cheek boned than the rest, but imo was prettier because she didn't have that bitchy look, lol...i think what he wanted was a girl less focused on other guys and who was sweet), but there is absolutely no point in a guy dating a woman he found to have no sex appeal. i'm sorry, lavendar, but your ex lied. he was just trying to hurt you.

maybe he meant that he imagined others would not find you heide klumlike, but he himself definitely found you attractive. men will often pursue a "safer" woman, one that is not the focus of all men, but still attractive (think phoebe on friends...she isn't monica or rachel, but she is still attractive). this way he figures he has someone he would like, but other men would be somewhat less focused on stealing away.

a man may date a less attractive woman that he usually does (i know a guy who said "forget it, these hot girls all cheat on me, i'm going to find a nice, average girl to be with" and he did find a girl that was more average, but still attractive...he would never have picked someone he didn't want to have sex with. the girl he picked was less high cheek boned than the rest, but imo was prettier because she didn't have that bitchy look, lol...i think what he wanted was a girl less focused on other guys and who was sweet), but there is absolutely no point in a guy dating a woman he found to have no sex appeal. i'm sorry, lavendar, but your ex lied. he was just trying to hurt you.

If a man says he can't get it up because you are too ugly, he means he just can't get it up, it is a problem with his body, not with yours. Either that, or he is gay as a parrot and in denial. Or maybe you have a supersmashing personality that guys are crazy about... But there are plenty of men who do want to hump you.

If a man says he can't get it up because you are too ugly, he means he just can't get it up, it is a problem with his body, not with yours.

Absolutely. Here's two lines from my actual love life (to which I will spare you all the other sexy details)...
Big penis man: "Whew you're hot, what a body!"
Insanely small penis man: "Have you ever considered implants?"

Pecan,
Spew! LOL! This is what makes the boards great. LOL. We could live lifetimes without all finding examples like that.

That is why I don't consider hostile men when it comes to sex; they are usually lacking in a crucial area if they aren't obviously short, fat or ugly.

Yep, and sometimes the size of their manhood or lack thereof is the least of their problems.

I heard from one woman who was with a guy with a small one that he was bugging her for sex all the time, complaining he did not get enough and when they did have sex he would yelp "You are coming, come, come you love it and need it soooo much" as soon as she made any sound whatsoever.

I've met one or two guys who were well endowed, who had hostility issues, but never once did they critique my body. It's interesting that the only men that ever put me down in the arena of appearances were men with penis or performance issues.

Perhaps they were rejected or made fun of and figured before she gets me let me get her first.

It probably works. If a woman is insecure and worried about her body, she will often take the blame for a man's lack of potency.

You often hear men saying they have no more appetite for their wife after she gained weight from childbirth. Actually, the man being tired from waking up at night if he is over 35 is probably the cause of trouble. A lot of old guys also try to pull that mess, that they are not in the mood because missus' boobs went south, when in reality it's his winky that no longer goes north.

A lot of old guys also try to pull that mess, that they are not in the mood because missus' boobs went south, when in reality its his winky that no longer goes north.

About Gold Diggers

I think there is something deep to that but I can't quite teas out what it is. A deep hatred or fear of women? Doing it on purpose as a form of abuse? I'm talking about men who look at all women with wide eyed fear in their eyes, sure that every one of them is a gold digger and if she expects him to pay for date or cup of coffee or if she expects a gift on her birthday the man has a sour look on his face, yep, she's a gold digger just like he thought.

And get this, my X, I never asked for anything from him, ever. I never ever complained why don't you ever bring me flowers on V day (he never brought chocolates or anything - and I was married), never anything, never even took me out when he proposed, of course there was no ring, never bought me anything so much as a pair of earrings on and on. But wait, I'm leading up to a punch line with this.

So after 4 years of marriage I spring it on him that I want a divorce. He says "why do you want a divorce" and I say "because you never took me on a date" and you know what he says? You know what he says? "you must be a gold digger then".

And the whole reason I put up with that treatment for so long was to prove what a good sweet girl I was. The whole reason I never asked for a ring or expected to be taken to dinner on a date was to show that I'm not like those other girls, I'm not a gold digger. So get that, years and years of being a good sweet girl, and after all that, he sees me as a gold digger anyway. It was all for nothing.
For nothing.

This shows me there's something more to this gold digger stuff. No matter how much you try to prove yourself to him, no matter how good and how very sweet you are, men that hate women will just think of you as a gold digger no matter what.

Plus I find it hard to believe he really believed that, I think men know that good sweet girls are eager to show they ask for nothing, so slapping them down the thing they fear the most, calling them a gold digger, is a good way to slap them down into their place right?

What I love most about the whole "gold digging" claim is that what is ignored is how much money women invest in their appearance in order to even be asked out on dates in the first place. Sure, you have your occasional natural beauty who can cut her own hair and looks radiant with just a dab of Vaseline, but most of us put in the hustle.

To prove my point (but also to be nosey ;o)), may I pose the question: how much do you spend on your personal appearance, for a week, month, or year (whatever time frame you are most able to "do the math" on) ?

Gym expenses, clothing, makeup, hair, hair removal, cosmetic procedures, cosmetic surgery... you don't have to be specific if you don't want to, but what is your total to look the way that you do?

By Dark Kitty: Thousands and thousands of dollars. Yep, men forget that they won't even ask a girl on a date in the first place unless she looks great, and it cost a lot to look that way.

Whores, Sluts and Political Correctness

Drinking is legal, all-you-can-eat buffets are legal.... a 50 year old man having a threesome with two 18-year-old girls is legal...

Legal is not another word for "okay," or "healthy," it's just a term that means: this will not send you to prison.

You can tell a lot about a woman by her reaction to the words "slut" and "whore."
I don't mind them because..... I've never been one.

Aggie - Apr 24, 2008 7:05 pm (#322 of 457) Reply

The obsessive and self-congratulating use of the word 'whore' with such derogatory vehemence is un-modest itself, and unnecessarily negative. True modesty demands delicacy of both the heart and the manner.

There may be women with the attributes that term is intended to describe, but the men they consort with are not the men any one of us should be seeing, or worrying about attracting, or worrying about who is attractive to them.

There are plenty of good men who do not spend time with these women, or try to attract them, or want to be attractive to them. We should concern ourselves with these good men and leave others to their own proclivities. Obsession with men or women outside our dating boundaries is a waste of perfectly good time. Life is short. Isn't it better to be in a positive frame of mind than a bitter, resentful one? This fixated, unceasing contempt is pervasive, misplaced, and it brings the spirit down.

Can a woman of very low morals take a man away from you? Yes. Can a woman of very low morals take a GOOD man away from you? Never. These women are not our competition and they never will be.

As a response to Aggie's post: The slutty girls in your area may not be distracting your future husband, but they are distracting others which does effect you. Let is say that in 2008, Sluttygirl gave blowjobs to Tom, Dick and Harry, who throughout the year do not court women and instead try to get first date blowjobs. Had they not met Sluttygirl, they would have respectfully dated Joan, Anna and Mary, who are now being ignored. What they do is up their efforts on Will, Joe and Bob, who would have otherwise spent their efforts pursuing you and giving you a great dating life4 in 2008 although the would not be your Mr. Right. Jack Right does approach you in 2009, but you lack the dating experience and skill and you seem less prestigious due to the effects of Sluttygirl. Maybe he still marries you, but you fail to negotiate power and Mr. Right knows you are not going anywhere. He does not treat you badly and he loves you dearly, but something is missing.

I do think it is possible to admit you have acted like a slut in the past, realize the effects of your behavior on yourself and others and change your ways. If you know that deep down, you are not a slut, the word won't hurt you. You may feel regret and remorse when thinking about your antics, but as you have felt those feelings purposefully, they do not surprise attack you when someone speaks those words.

clean*and*pretty: Yes, it affects us in so many ways, and in so many indirect ways that nonetheless have an *enormous* impact on the final outcome.

I am not feeling well, so please let that be my excuse. Am I a bitter hen? Yes, I am.

I don't care how "good" the man is. You put a young hot looking girl in front of him, give him a few too many drinks and her offering oral sex or more, and I am telling you, he is going to go for it.

In the past, it was acknowledged as common sense that wayward women had the power to corrupt men. But these days, there's this idea that "good" men are made of iron and will not budge for any temptation. It's part of the Western "every man is an island" philosophy, that somehow we are not particularly affected by others. Ridiculous.

Herb Goldberg talks about how susceptible men are to young good looking flatterers.

Now, I'm sure that good husbands or good boyfriends can resist temptation, but if you're talking about a single, unattached male, then yes, he is probably going to succumb.

To pretend that the dating pool is full of strong, upright men who would never waste time on floozies and who are dating with marriage in mind....

Herb Goldberg talks about how susceptible men are to young good looking flatterers.

I think the truth lies in the middle. Men do have a natural drive to sleep with young pretty and willing women. Men also have willpower. Good men will have more willpower than others, but most good men do not have infinite willpower. It's pretty much like a normal distribution, a handful will have iron will, a handful are weak and the rest in the middle.

The average good guy will be able to say no to the townwhore and to the horny widow a man may encounter in a small town if he is married, but will he really be able to say no to blowjobs from young, pretty girls when he is not married? Casual sex is no sin in the eyes of society and his friends would congratulate rather than berate him. Even if he prefers to avoid casual sex, he can say no once a year, but can he say no every weekend?

SmartBlonde - Apr 30, 2008 12:52 am (#70 of 74) Reply
What is the point of degrading other women really helpful other than debasing them to make our self feel better by wallowing in self righteousness and congratulating ourselves for our holier than thou morals?

I don't randomly call women having sex names... but I do know plenty who congratulate themselves on the fact that they are "down for anything" and say that women who aren't deserve to have their men serviced by women like them. And I know many women who delight in sleeping with men who are dating, in relationships or married to other women they know.

I just don't get protecting women who do negative things. No one is stumping for the words "alcoholic" or "addict" to not be used.

I haven't seen anyone refer negatively to someone who is unmarried and having sex with someone... unless she's having sex with *everyone* or with someone else's man.

When YOUR man cheats on you with some "sweet naive girl"... you can show me the way by celebrating her, calling her misguided and taking her out to lunch. But we all know that won't happen. It's only theoretically that women without morals are celebrated. It's a different story when it's on your doorstep.

From Lili*

if you have money to spend on suffering in therapy, you have money to spend on these things. you have money to spend on airplanes, and trains and ships and aromatherapy massage. you really do. spend your money on things that make you happy!

go to Italy even it's raining. take in the beauty of life. take in the beauty of your LiFe. Go to India even if your boyfriend left you and you have a lot of "issues" about it to explore, and your self esteem is low. take a month off and ride trains across Europe. take a bunch of great books. cocoon on the train. get your own sleeping car. take you favorite classical music. watch the countryside, out the windows. flirt with Italian waiters on the train. EnJoY your LiFe (even if you are depressed). Doing something totally different re-arranges your brain. is as effective (no! - more effective!) than therapy for the blues. do the things you always dreamed of while you are alive (even if you are depressed or have low self esteem!) (forget that stuff!).

even if it's only 10 days. ;) take some great shoes. and buy some great novels. take a girlfriend or a sister, or go solo, as a *woman of mystery*. EnJoY your Life (before it's gone), and don't worry about men who aren't crazy about you! Book a trip now. do something fabulous.

Take a hot shower after your work out, slather on Jasmine lotion, stop by the massage appointment desk, on your way out, and book a long, lingering aromatherapy massage for this Saturday night, if no guy has booked you for a date by tonight. Go buy a leopard print scarf (or gloves) (or a leopard print bra & pantie set) (don't wait till you have a boyfriend to buy these). go get some highlights, and a great novel. sign up for a Thai cooking for singles class. or a swing dance class.

did you listen to hot, happy, sassy, music (gurl music) on your Walkman, while you worked out, and read armloads of Glamour or Vogue, while you ran on the treadmill? did you bring Aveda shampoos, and lotions, in your gym bag? do you have any in your gym locker in a jungle print cosmetics bag? you really need these things when you are in a funk. you need these deeetails. when you opened your gym locker, is the whole inside of your locker taped up with semi-nude pictures of hunky guys? (you can cut them out of magazines). or buy 8x10 glossys of your favorite, movie star guys, smiling at you. tape them inside your locker.
what is in your locker, pixi? you must not have the right things in there. do you have gym shower shoes, that are cuter than any otha girls'? pink, flowah ones? or periwinkle ones? are they new & shiny? throw away your old ones! get the candy wrappers outta there! clean it out! your homework is to get pictures for your locker. and new showah shoes. fem-fem ones. hold nothing back. and stock your gym cosmetic bag with little sample sizes of fancy shampoos & lotions you never tried. the mind needs novelty. do you have a sports Walkman? do you cruise by the massage appointment counter, and make little massage appointments (bettah than Prozac!)?