WUMTHS - 1

Since actions are the only thing men understand I might as well have said "I don't have casual sex but since I so willing to do it with you don't believe for a minute - I lie."

He is thinking "Yeah, sure she doesn't. How come she is sooo anxious to do it with me when all I did was tell her I would be exclusive and say a lot of romantic things when I still barely know her. She said she was not into casual sex but we are having casual sex. She must like casual sex and just be telling me little lie, lest I think she is easy. I know she is by her actions, so why worry about her feelings?"

This is what I was not figuring out and what it means to not play your cards and maintain your mystery. Here I was thinking I was being honest, upfront and protecting my virtue. Not only did I play my whole hand I let him know what my cards were. I would make a lousy poker player but at least I had an aha! moment today so I am greatful.

There is no question I wanted it to go somewhere ... fast! That's the whole premise of the statement, "Rules Girls never make anything happen" ~ we don't rush life.

Any pushing of things is not prudent and it certainly isn't safe. One MUST take time to assess character, no matter how great we "feel" they are right off the bat. Use simple precaution (TRs) and pace things properly. The fact is we aren't going to get "there" any faster than we should, try as we might! That's Nature's way.

TRs are what it takes to stop the insanity we've become so familiar with. Letting our dysfunctional past (mental problems, issues, hurts, whatever) direct us into that which is "familiar" and "feels" so good and right, at first glance.

If a woman isn't "making things happen" and she's slowly pacing and assessing the man who pursues her then she needn't ever come to that awful place where she realizes he is abusive, cold, cruel, neglectful or whatever ... "Just like my Father/Mother" .... whomever.

No more repeating our past hurts and failures. TRs gives that promise and it's been true for me.

~ Tex ~

WUMTHS is one of those topics you only need to state to men once, if at all. If you keep talking about it with him, you'll only be showing your hand and making yourself more vulnerable.

I have done a good bit of dating using TRs as my goal and guide. In doing them and really learning about men and myself I have found that my old, "fun" style of dating seems to make the man become forward very quickly.

I was out of the controlling position before I knew what was happening and then it was more of a game of "catch up" for ME. Where all of this is leading for me is to REALLY put the man in the wait-and-see position ... from the very first moments. Just like TRs says.

Then there won't be the need to do any explaining as he will be the one who is closely watching all of the signals and trying to do what is "right" by me.

There will not be a bunch of necking, petting and getting so hot and heavy that I'll feel the need to put on the brakes and throw up the barricades (words of WUMTHS) in desperation.

A couple of rough dates where the men have definitely had the wrong idea of me has made it so that I am now very determined to date much more formally ... so that those boundaries will not become fuzzy and I won't have to "work" at anything! :o)

~ Tex ~

I only share this story for the sake of the women who think he won't keep seeing them if they don't give it up.

There were a number of ridiculous things about that particular situation, but the fact remains that said no, to a guy who had never heard of waiting, and still kept seeing him.

Oh, but if you could have seen his face!

But I am finding myself sometimes really caught up in the fantasy and feeling that he and I are having sex. It is a wonderful feeling of being turned on that lasts a long time. And it seems to be getting stronger and more clear to me.

And I think I know why. It is safer to admit to my sexual feelings and really give them feeling range since I know I am not going to "have" to do anything about them or want to do anything about them. It is as if putting limits on expressing my sexuality has now allowed me to feel a stronger sense of sexuality. To not deny it as a way to protect myself or to play them down in importance in case he dumps me or doesn't like me for longer than a little bit.

If you are at risk for loosing something easily (that guy you like or even anything for that matter) and you know it, you aren't going to give it as much genuine value than if you know you cherish something and it isn't going to be lost soon. Then, you really can let yourself feel, love and care for it.

I learned the hard way just what that meant. I always knew it meant no accountability. But what I learned the hard way was to just what extreme a guy would go to have sex with no strings attached. When they mean that, they really do mean that. What amazes me is just how dead inside a guy would have to be to actually do what it would take to have no strings attached.

It's so amazing - when they learn that you're not giving them the gift of sex until they commit, they think to themselves, "well, she's the one, I love her, and there's no reason to wait any longer".

As most of you know, I had sex after engagement, but as far as getting to engagement, it's so amazing how waiting puts the anxiety on them. Instead of the woman scratching at the walls, it's the man. To see a man realize that there's no reason to wait when you find The One is magical. You see them change from a boy into a man (something like that).

Ask yourself these questions.

What would I want to tell my daughter to do?
What will I want to look back on and 10 years from now and see that I had done?
What will give me the most pride and self respect?
What will make our relationship the strongest?
How would I feel if (God forbid) the engagement was broken? (It's happened even to girls from this board)

My last but not least bit of advice it this, whatever you decide wait 2 months after setting a date to have sex (and to tell him if you do decide on sex). That will give your feeling a chance to settle and see what your relationship dynamic is like during the engagement phase. You can deal with two months of sexual tension (although I know why a year seems so tough.) That way you will have given yourself a chance to sort out your feeling away from the initial high. Remember anything you give up by not waiting, you can never get back. But everything you give up while waiting (sex) you'll get to have whenever you want, for the rest of your life once you are married.

Hope all this rambling helps!

[Hockeychick] - 06:58pm Dec 14, 1999 EST (#4402 of 10365)
Imp~ A couple of things...First of all, do you want a short engagement or a long one? If you want short (6 months or less) absolutely you must keep holding out. That's part of his incentive to keep it short or shorten it at some point if he starts off thinking in longer terms.

If YOU want a long engagement (more like a year) and he's willing to set a date, sex after he's set the date could be ok.

But here's what I've learned about TR and sex during engagement. First of all I've slowly slacked on the formality of many of TR. I never cling and in general he purses, but I do more last minute stuff. At least one weekend night is an assumed standing date. I've slowly slipped into calling more often. It's a given that he comes with me when I have plans with my friends unless it a girls night out. Those sorts of things. This has not hurt our relationship per se. He's still all in love and excited about getting married. But it has definitely made ME feel less centered and more off balance a lot of times. If I had it to do over again I'd stay closer to bootcamp. As a matter of fact, I just last weekend decided that I think want to stop our sleepovers, which we've been doing forever. No matter what I feel slightly abandon when he gets up first (he's a morning person, I'm not) and goes off to start his day. Much as I love falling asleep with him, I always feel slightly off afterwards. And even this late in the game I think it's something I want to rectify.

My point being, the more "married" type of behavior you save for when you are actually married, the more in control you are likely to feel. The high of the initial engagement does wear off a bit while your waiting, and your still dealing with some dating type dynamics.

Part 2 coming...

Let him know sub textually that you are not interested in dating him exclusively. Don't accept a Saturday night date for a while - IF he asks for that.

If you want him back/want to marry him, then you must start all over. Don't "reconcilliate" - make him win you all over again, or you won't be happy.

There is no reason to even worry about anything sexual for three months. Don't even let him kiss you for awhile. He knows that you won't have casual sex with him - he called you because he may be ready to accept this. If he doesn't treat you better than he did before (flowers, jewelry perfect Rules bf behavior, dismiss him.

Say no to everything: "hang-out" dates, exclusivity, ILY reciprocations, trips away, sex (of course), talks about the future.
Let him know subtly that you are dating others and are just seeing him for the heck of it.
It's a hard row to hoe, Angel. Think about whether or not he's worth it, because it will be less gratifying than a new relationship (even if he does everything perfect). From now until engagement it's hard work for you.

Is he worth it?

If you want to have casual sex with him, fine, but be sure that you're ok with casual sex. Don't assume that he loves you or wants to marry you because you have sex. That is total female fantasy.

(whiney hiney about sex).

It's hard for me to advise you, cause I've been married pretty much forever :) But the thing I've noticed, especially lately, is that WUMTHS ladies seem to get engaged at twice the rate of non-waiters around here. Something about facing the tough question of sex before marriage with grace and strength of convictions appears to move a woman from girlfriend category to wife material category in these men's minds. It's like a light goes on in their heads that says, wow, if I can get this one she'll be all mine. And what a catch. If the evidence on these boredz is any indication, WUMTHS is the icing on the cake of TR. It seems to put a man in marriage mode faster than any other Rule.

Is he The One?

I have a rule (a francella rule) that when I tell a man something, I only tell him once.

or "I feel in my heart, that this is the best choice for me". especially if an argument ensues or he tries to "have a big talk". because he can't argue with that. don't say "I think", say "I feel in my heart". don't argue logically about it. men will respect a woman who sez, "in my heart I know this is right for me". they stop arguing with her. what can they say? lol.

don't use your intellect to debate it. just, say, softly, "my heart is guiding me in this".

they cannot argue it. men find it verrrry feminine, when women talk like this. they back off on pushing you or tying to debate you.

if he gets argumentative or overbearing, whatever he sez, just keep repeating the same "heart" phrase(s). like a sweet, soft broken record.

he'll soften towards you and drop the topic.

then dooon't say anything else. don't explain it, doon't elaborate, don't defend, don't act scared, unconfident, or nervous. don't act timid about the topic at all. fake it if you have to. but act super fem and super confident.

or, he might break up with you, after lots of pouting and complaining. if he does, it's actually good. because, he doesn't want to go the distance with you, and it's good to find this out.

in a few cases, like impatience's story and one other story here, he'll respond really well, and actually light up about you, and soon a proposal will follow, because he really does think of you as "the one".

it makes everything clear as crystal. within 1-6 months. you'll find out who really loves you and wants to go the distance with you and who is just in it for a good time for now.

Of course, that doesn't mean that having sex caused him to lose interest, but sounds like it trigged her bonding impulse so strongly that she couldn't refrain from pursuing him (or PBTing into the nuthouse).

Her husband, the late Jim Elliot, wrote a book to men called "The Mark of a Man" and she wrote a book to women called "Let Me Be a Woman". The latter is a fabulous book.

The books are all written from a Christian perspective, but are full of some really fabulous gems of wisdom. On your recommendation, I'm going to read Wendy Shalit's book next. I'm so excited- it sounds wonderful! :)

Impatience - if you're feeling that attitude from the fianc�, just do TR as usual. Back off like you're not quite sure you should have said yes, that you have doubts. Doubts voiced with unavailability, not words. Not talking about the wedding at all. Should work like a charm! Doesn't mean he doesn't love you. Do you feel a little freaked yourself, along with the happiness? On the Success board (in the past anyway) I've seen a cold-feet attitude among the girls the sooner they get to the wedding!

"A good guy" wants to believe that he's ready for marriage, but I'm uncomfortable watching him "prepare" himself. It's like watching someone hang out on the high dive platform at the pool. If he finally jumps, you're more likely to be glad that he did it at all, instead of impressed with his choice of dive, execution, etc.

I feel more like a mother. I don't like this position.

When you and your bf broke up, was he just a jerk until you left, or was WUMTHS openly addressed?

Sometimes I come swaggering onto this board, sometimes crawling. Today, I think I'm shuffling.

SAL, remember when you said "[my sister said that long makeout/mashing sessions build up resentments in men]"?

Your sister is right. I guess this is my practice relationship with/WUMTHS. After three months, it has gotten very difficult and unhappy.

Please learn from my mistakes, everyone. Say goodnight at the door. If you want to kiss heavily, at least do it in a movie theater or on a romantic stroll, just someplace public so that you're stealing kisses instead of wondering why you can't go further.

Even making out this weekend made my bf irate. I can feel everything getting more aggressive and impatient. Oh well. Live and learn, right?

One interesting thing, tho - it's really amazing to watch him get all upset because he's not getting what he wants. I mean, I've always felt guilty for wanting commitment, but men don't feel guilty at all for wanting sex. It's really something to watch them struggle with the longing instead of me.

To myself, I thought, "how do you (bf) like it now that you're suppressing your needs so as not to lose me?" Of course, these aren't nice, loving thoughts and I realize that I'm being a tease, even though I'm just trying to make us happy without giving away too much. Those are my resentful thoughts.

In any case, only 26 days to go until I officially give up on the relationship! It's so fantastic to have an absolute deadline - I feel safer knowing that it'll be over then, one way or the other.

Thanks for listening to me ramble. (Note: this poster got engaged shortly after she posted this)

One thing that helped me was to acknowledge monthly anniversaries of my WUMTHS date and to buy myself a locket that represents my new chaste ways. It really helps!